Study – Grow – Know

“Questions & Comments to the PreTrib Rapture Enthusiasts on Their Way to Hell”

December 20, 2010 at 9:22 PM 4 comments

Note to Readers:  Sorry for the length of this post, but I did not want to split it into sections.

I recently came across a blog in which the owner – Larry – took the time castigate Dispensationalists and anyone else who believes in the PreTrib Rapture position.

He analyzed Gerstner’s writings that are specifically anti-Dispensational and he holds nothing back either. Gerstner’s unbridled attacks on PreTrib Rapturists and Dispensationalists are what started the modern-day attack on Dispensationalism. Dave MacPherson took the baton from there and continued the diatribe, complete with sarcasm and vitriol. MacPherson’s groupies tend to do the same thing by not only parroting his words, but mirroring his attitude and demeanor as well.

I posted my own comments on Larry’s blog a number of months ago, which he published. I simply stated the following in response to the many comments related to Gerstner:

Actually, documents containing references to the Rapture go back much further than 1830. Gerstner did not do thorough research. Ah, but what do I know? I’m just a heretic, right? Some of you folks need to get out and evangelize…

Larry’s response to this was this:
“Yes, you are a heretic! If, after the pre-tribe rapture, when all the people are “lifted up” to somewhere — you then make a mark on your calender for exactly 7 years hence, you will then know the exact day of Jesus’ 2nd coming! You will have succeeded in “breaking scripture” that supposedly cannot be broken!
Jesus said in Acts 1:7 that it is NOT for man to know the times of God, yet the Pretrib rapture crap portrays a bunch of people who will be able to “figure it out”! This is merely a subtle, convoluted form of forbidden, sinful, timesetting, which is heresy, which calls Jesus a liar! You are welcome.”

Larry then went onto post some questions that he apparently believes put the entire issue to rest:

“Here are some questions and comments to the pretrib rapture enthusiasts on their way to hell.

1. Where does scripture speak of some getting a tribulation ‘second chance’ to choose Life, and the dead not getting a second chance? Hint: this is a false gospel teaching, which carries with it a curse of Galations 1, that they will be sent strong delusion for their love of lies and be damned. We also find them adding to Revelation. Jesus says He gives life to whom He pleases. John 5:21
2. What if an airplane crashes because the pilot was raptured and everybody is killed. Had they lived they could have had a second chance to decide for Christ, but now they get no second chance, because they were on the airplane. Does the pre-trib rapture really doom some while giving others another chance? Please provide scripture for this.
3. Do Christians who believe that the pretribulation rapture is a lie actually believe in a foreign Jesus? Do they believe a damnable lie? Are they actually “servants of satan”? II Corinthians 11.
4. Are two groups of people saved who each teach a different Jesus? Will they be damned forever because they do not believe in the Jesus of the pretrib rapture? Doesn’t that actually make the pretrib rapture a test of faith?
5. In formulating pretribulation rapture teachings, is it wise to skip all around the Bible taking snippets from here and there, invoking the curse of Isaiah 28? Isn’t that actually the same as handling scripture deceitfully?
6. Would you consider any rapture teachings that add ideas to Revelation that are actually not written there, to be a curse and damnable? Is there strong warning in Revelation 22:18-19 about doing such?
   a. Example: Jehovah Witnesses teaching that the 144,000 are actually from their JW cult.
   b. Example: Seventh-day Adventists teaching that Revelations mark-of-the-beast is actually the practice of assembling and worshipping on Sunday.
   c. Example: Calvary Chapel’s teaching that one of the two  witnesses in Revelation is actually Elijah. Source: “What the world is coming to” by Chuck Smith
7. Would you consider adding and subtracting from Revelation to be any different a sin than teaching “doctrines of demons”? Does it incur a punishment any different than that found in 2 Thess 2 — strong delusion sent from God that they will be damned?
8. Do Jesus’ own words in Matt 11:13 say that “all the prophets prophesied UNTIL John” or does it say “AFTER John”?
9. Does Hebrews 1:2 say that in these last days God speaks to us using prophets of the old testament or does it say He speaks to us by His Son, the same Son that spoke Matt 11:13? Do you keep Jesus’ word?
10. Is it orthodox to add prophecies from the old testament to Revelation?
11. Do we negate Jesus words in Matt 11:13 by treating all the prophets as prophesying past John, and mixing in those ideas with the book of Revelation?
12. Does Matthew 24:31 say “they shall gather together A FRACTION of His elect from the four winds” or does it really teach “they shall gather together His elect from the four winds”? Which statement is handling scripture deceitfully? Why are pre-tribbers so anxious to disregard Jesus’ doctrines? Could it actually be due to their running ahead of the doctrines of Christ, and not having God? See 2 John 9-11.
13. Are the “end of days” promised to Daniel actually the day of the pretrib rapture? “go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. Daniel 12:13
14. Are there any more days after the proposed pretribulation rapture?
15. Is Daniel not one of those “dead in Christ” from 1 Thess 4? Is there really more than one way to be saved? Is Daniel saved a different way than Abraham was saved? Isn’t that a false gospel with a curse attached? Galations 1:6-8.
16. Does scripture really talk about 2 seperate resurrections of the righteous?”

Interestingly enough, I took the time to compose a detailed response in which I addressed every one of Larry’s concerns and posted that on his blog as well. That was December 6th. The next day, I went back and found that Larry had removed my thoroughly detailed response. My response was not sarcastic, though it was pointed. It did not seek to castigate Larry or his beliefs, yet my response obviously bothered him.

I then posted this response to his eradication of my post:
“I cannot believe I took the time to respond to your post yesterday, and you deleted it! I responded to EVERY ONE of your questions above and you simply deleted it? Wow, unbelievable and cowardly.”

I’ll check back to see if he removed that one or if he responded to it and if so, what was contained in his response. (UPDATE: Larry removed my response one day after I posted it.)

As you can see for yourself in the 16 listed questions, Larry spends a good deal of time asking questions (some repetitive and some simply asinine). The major problem with Larry’s understanding of the PreTrib Rapture has to do with one thing and one thing only. Larry views those of us who believe the Bible teaches a PreTrib Rapture as heretics. Ask him. He’ll be more than happy to tell you straight out. I cautioned him about becoming a judge with evil thoughts (cf. James 2:4). In essence, Larry has placed himself in God’s position, determining who is and who is not saved based on their Eschatological viewpoint (the study of the End Times).

It is one thing to discern whether a person is saved based on their view of Jesus Christ. It is quite another to make a judgment on someone’s salvation based on an individual’s view of some aspect of Eschatology.

However, let’s take a moment to look at the problem here. While Larry is constantly haranguing the PreTrib Rapturist because he firmly believes we are guilty of “adding to the gospel,” and “making Jesus a liar,” what does the Bible actually say about how to become saved? Does it include a stipulation or condition pertaining to Eschatology? Let’s find out.

Paul states very clearly in the book of Romans the following:
“9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
“10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
“11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
“12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,” (Romans 9:9-13; KJV).

The above is Paul’s definition of what it means to become saved; to receive salvation:

1. Confess that Jesus is Lord
2. Believe completely that God raised Him from the dead

In verse 13, Paul shortens it to say that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Here he simply states that a person who earnestly and truthful calls out to God to be saved, will be saved. This is no different from what the thief on the cross did. God opened his eyes. The thief saw the truth about Jesus and his reaction to that was to call out to Him to be saved.

Please do not be confused with his statement “Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom,” (Luke 23:42). Do not fall into the trap of thinking that he really did not asked to be saved. What else was he doing? He had just realized that Jesus WAS KING! This Jesus had a KINGDOM and when Jesus came into that Kingdom, the thief wanted to be part of it, even if it was the smallest part! The thief was ASKING for Christ to remember him, to bless him, to grant him leave to be part of His Kingdom. The thief had humbled himself under the powerful truth that he saw when God opened his eyes. He humbled himself. This is nothing less than salvation.

What Paul is teaching in Romans 9 is NOT easy-believism because he specifically refers to Jesus as LORD, not merely Savior. If we honestly and earnestly confess that Jesus is LORD, we are halfway there! If we further believe that this same Jesus was raised from the dead, the eyes of our understanding have thoroughly been opened enough for salvation to penetrate our soul!

Look at John chapter three. Here we see Nicodemus coming to Jesus at night, because he was too chicken to approach Him in the daylight hours, fearing his Pharisee buds. Yet, he wanted to know the truth!

He starts off by complimenting Jesus “We know you are a teacher of God,” (v.2). Jesus ignores it and goes right to the heart of the matter, responding with, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God,” (v.3).

Nicodemus wanted to know what that meant and who could blame him.

Jesus continues and finally says, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God,” (v.18).

Therefore, it appears that to become saved, one must believe thoroughly, so that the belief exercised, affects that person’s life permanently. Neither Paul nor Jesus speak of head knowledge or intellectual assent. They are both speaking of a vital, life-giving belief that allows the Holy Spirit to take up residence within a person.

Once the Holy Spirit takes up residence, all things are new (whether they feel new or not), and from that point on, the person is sealed (branded, if you will) noting that the individual now belongs to God and He will work in and through each of His people to accomplish His will.

So far, I have read nothing in Paul’s or Jesus’ words that indicate that to be born again, one must do ALL three of the following things:

1. Confess that Jesus is Lord
2. Believe that God raised Him from the dead
3. Believe the correct view of Eschatology

In essence, while Larry is busy accusing me and other PreTrib Rapturists of adding to Scripture, or the gospel, in point of fact, Larry is the one who is guilty of adding to it! Larry has the temerity to tell me that I am going to hell and he bases that solely on the fact that I am a PreTrib Rapturist! Yet, this is not even one of the tenets that Paul or Jesus discussed at all as a requisite for salvation! Is Larry greater than both Paul and Jesus?

Both Jesus and Paul say that to become born again (or saved as in Paul’s verbiage), is done through faith in realizing that Jesus IS Lord and that He rose from the dead! We cannot fully begin to appreciate His supreme and absolute Lordship if we do not believe He rose from the dead and that should be obvious.

If I believe with my heart, mind, and soul that Jesus IS God, that He died for my sin, a bloody and painful death, that He went into the grave and that He rose three days later, apparently, according to Scripture, I am SAVED, whether Larry or anyone else likes it. This is what both Paul and Jesus state, is it not?

Then Larry comes along and while he is busy accusing ME of adding to the text of Scripture, in essence Larry is the one who has actually CHANGED the gospel of Christ by adding an additional requirement to it!

To this Larry would likely respond that what he MEANS is that (he believes) it is impossible to believe that Jesus is Lord and that He rose from the dead IF a person believes in the PreTrib Rapture. However, Larry needs to understand that long before I began to see and believe in a PreTrib Rapture, I believed that Jesus IS Lord and that He rose from the dead.

So then, what is Larry saying? Is he saying that salvation can be LOST, or is he still obstinately stating that I was never saved? If it is the former, I would wholeheartedly disagree with him based on the teachings of Scripture. If it is the latter, I would also wholeheartedly disagree with him and accuse him of becoming a judge of evil thoughts (cf. James 2:4; Matthew 7:1-2).

When Jesus said “Judge not, lest ye be judged For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again,” (Matthew 7:1-2), it seems clear enough that we are not to judge what it is another person’s heart. Yet, Larry seems to have absolutely no problem judging me based on his interpretation of what he believes the Bible says about the PreTrib Rapture. Think of the arrogance involved in stating unequivocally that I am going to hell because of my belief in a PreTrib Rapture!  That is outrageous, yet it exists within Larry and is becoming too common today.

Most Christians would agree that there are five fundamentals upon which the Christian faith is built. In truth, to not agree with one or more of them calls a person’s Christianity into question. They are:

1. The Trinity: God is one “What” and three “Whos” with each “Who” possessing all the attributes of Deity and personality.
2. The Person of Jesus Christ: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man for all eternity.
3. The Second Coming: Jesus Christ is coming bodily to earth to rule and judge.
4. Salvation: It is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
5. The Scripture: It is entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life.

Based on the above, the only aspect of those five fundamentals that is Eschatological at all is number 3, the second coming of Jesus. Please note that within that tenet, nothing is mentioned of the Tribulation, the Rapture (or the timing of the Rapture), the Great White Throne Judgment or any other aspect surrounding Christ’s return. So then, what is my response to each of these fundamentals?

1. Do I firmly believe that God is TRIUNE? Yes!
2. Do I firmly believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man for all eternity? Yes!
3. Do I firmly and unequivocally believe in the physical Second Coming of Jesus? Absolutely!
4. Do I believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? Yes, with NO reservations!
5. Do I believe that the Scriptures are entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life? Definitely!

Apparently, though, none of this is good enough for Larry, who believes firmly that solely because I believe in the PreTrib Rapture, I am going to hell! Of all the asinine and absurd judgments anyone can make, this is it, yet Larry has no qualms about making it. He actually seems to delight in it, just as MacPherson and his followers love to point fingers and make accusations complete with sarcastic rejoinders.

I would like you to take a moment and go back and re-read Larry’s questions, would you? Aside from the fact that many are repetitive with the same question simply reworded, there are a few that are important to tackle.

Look at question number 1, which asks in part, “Where does scripture speak of some getting a tribulation ‘second chance’ to choose Life, and the dead not getting a second chance?”

Larry goes onto refer to this as a false gospel. I have heard this argument many times, and it is no argument at all. This is partly what I told Larry in my response to him (the initial one he deleted):

I am 53. The first time I heard of Jesus Christ and the salvation He offers, I did not become a Christian. Did you? However, I still lived past that time and I heard about Jesus’ salvation again, on another occasion. I still did not bite, and the Lord continued to allow me to live. It was not until the age of thirteen, after hearing about Jesus and the only salvation that is available, did I commit myself to Jesus Christ. Had I died before then, where I would be now?

Have you ever spent time witnessing to someone to hear them reject what you had to say about Jesus Christ, who He is, and what He accomplished for them? Did you stop witnessing to him? I hope not! So you continued to witness to him in both word and deed and you never neglected to pray for him either. Years go by and you get absolutely nothing from this person. Your heart is heavy and you wish with all your might you could personally open his eyes to the truth but you know that is in God’s hands because He is sovereign, not you. You continue witnessing and praying.

One day your friend knocks on your door. You open it to see a huge smile on his face. He is very excited and proceeds to tell you about how he went to church with someone and while there, the blinders fell off and everything you had told him for years SUNK IN! He received the Lord! He understands now! You both spend time praising the Lord and sharing.

Now, how many chances did your friend get to receive Christ? Did he get one chance? Two chances? Three chances? No, he got YEARS worth of chances. In other words, your friend got as many chances to receive Christ, as it would take before he became a Christian because God wants no one to perish!  That is testament to God’s patience and love.

To the question of those entering the Tribulation and getting a second chance, it  is an absurd question, since they probably had MANY chances prior to entering the Tribulation. Beyond that, why does Larry see the Tribulation as a SECOND chance? For many it will be their FIRST chance. For others, it will be their 101st chance! Does it matter to God? Hardly. What matters to God is that all who WILL receive Him get as many chances to do so as they NEED.  As long as a person is alive, they will receive opportunities to become Christians and thank God for that.

Yet, Larry apparently thinks that no one should have a second chance and he obviously views the entirety of each person’s life here as ONE chance, from birth to death. He further thinks that somehow IF the Rapture occurs prior to the Tribulation, then faith is no longer at work and people who are left behind won’t exercise faith because they now KNOW the truth. That’s ridiculous. Not ONE person on this earth who becomes an authentic Christian can become a Christian UNLESS and UNTIL their eyes are open to the TRUTH and that happens only through God’s will.

There will be millions of people left on this planet after the Rapture who will NOT see the Rapture as a sign of Scriptural truth. Many of them already believe that something like this is scheduled to occur but it will be accomplished by ALIENS or ASCENDED MASTERS who shuttle the individuals they have removed from earth to another “dimensional plane.”

Larry needs to read a few books by people like Barbara Marciniak and others who have been channeling these types of messages for year from “ascended masters” beyond our dimension.  These beings in actuality are nothing more than demons in disguise!

Those who have already DIED before the Tribulation begins have had ALL the chances they needed in this life. If they died in their sin without ever coming to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, another year or two or even one more day of life on earth is not going to change that. They would STILL continue to reject God’s salvation through Christ and die in their sin! Length of time on planet earth has nothing to do with it. What matters is the amount of chances God provides for each person to receive His salvation and God already knows IF and WHEN that will happen for each person.

What Larry and many other individuals like him fail to realize is that their viewpoint actually denigrates God and His sovereignty! They do not see God as fully in charge. They do not see Him as having all things under control!
Fortunately for all humanity, God in His love, His graciousness, His holiness and the fact that He is just grants to everyone all the chances they will need to come to Him…or not. He is not unfair at all, though Larry wants us to believe that somehow, in a convoluted way, believing in the PreTrib Rapture is saying that God is unfair, therefore the PreTrib Rapture cannot be true.

Larry’s question number 2 ties into question 1.
What if an airplane crashes because the pilot was raptured and everybody is killed. Had they lived they could have had a second chance to decide for Christ, but now they get no second chance, because they were on the airplane. Does the pre-trib rapture really doom some while giving others another chance? Please provide scripture for this.

I have to apologize ahead of time for saying this, but this is really a completely asinine set of questions that Larry poses, on par with Is God powerful enough to create a rock He cannot lift?

I pointed out to him that we could very well ask the same question with respect to the planes that were hijacked and deliberately flown into the World Trade Towers. I wonder how many of those who died did so WITHOUT Christ, either on the planes or in the towers? I wonder how many would have TURNED to Christ if given another chance? The answer: NONE. Not one person would have become a Christian if God had given them more opportunities by extending their life to come to Him. To suggest otherwise is to malign God’s sovereignty and other aspect s of His character, and to claim that God is NOT in control of the eternal destinies of those individuals. Obviously, their last day on earth did not take God by surprise (though it likely took them by surprise), because it was PRE-APPOINTED by Him, the Author of Life. Isn’t that what Jesus said in Luke 12:20 when He stated, “But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?” Therefore, since God predetermined WHEN they were going to die, it would have meant He would have given them EVERY chance they needed to receive salvation from Him BEFORE that fateful day.

If it were possible for a person on one of those planes to have lived another day, or week, or month, Larry would say that they would then have more chances to become Christians. Yes, they would, but that in no way means that they WOULD become Christians. It just means they will live longer on earth.  Hezekiah lived longer and looked what happened to him (cf. 2 Kings 20; Isaiah 38).

Is Larry saying that because of my belief in the PreTrib Rapture, it somehow teaches that there are accidental deaths in this world?  The PreTrib Rapture does not teach or even imply that erroneous idea.

So let’s look at the absurd straw man situation Larry has set up. He is implying that on one hand, the PreTrib Rapture is wrong because it provides people left behind with additional chances during the Tribulation that he believes the Bible does not teach. He also believes that it robs people of a second chance (those who have died prior to or because of the Rapture event). He then attempts to prove his points by using the PreTrib Rapture to show what would happen if pilots of a plane were taken up in the Rapture leaving the plane to crash and killing all aboard. His point is that if that pilot had NOT been taken in the Rapture, those very same people would live another day to have another chance to make a decision for God. He is assuming that it is the length of time that someone spends on this earth that gives him or her chances to receive Christ. In point of fact, it is ALL solely due to God’s sovereignty, His will, and His purposes where each individual is concerned.

Do you see the insidious nature of how Larry is actually denying God’s sovereignty here by creating a straw man argument that he proceeds to tear down?

Forget the Rapture for a moment. What if the pilot (or both of them) had fatal heart attacks on a plane and the plane went down? Gee, we could then say that God is unjust because those people died when they might still be alive if only the airline had not allowed two pilots with heart problems on the same plane.

It is that ridiculous. If the Rapture happened today and a pilot was removed from a plane during that event, allowing it to crash killing all on board, it seems reasonable to conclude (because of God’s unchanging character and nature) that all those people who died WITHOUT Christ would die the same way if they lived five, ten, or thirty years more.

God is in no way unjust at all, but this is belief Larry is implying stems from the PreTrib Rapture creates or teaches, by somehow trumping God’s sovereignty over all things. I’m very tempted to say that people like Larry are idiots, but that would be unkind. I’m also tempted to say that Balaam’s donkey spoke more intelligently than Larry, but that might also be unkind, so I won’t say either of those things.

Larry also touches on the obligatory accusation that Dispensationalists believe there are two methods of salvation (cf. question 4), which is 100% untrue. I pointed out to Larry that people in the Old Testament are saved exactly the same way that people AFTER Jesus are saved – by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone, in CHRIST alone.  The difference in benefits or blessings here and now between those saved after Christ and those before are multitude, but none has any bearing on any portion of salvation.

For instance, God decreed that to approach Him at all in the Old Testament, it had to be with the blood of bulls and other sacrificed animals.  The High Priest could only go into the Holy of Holies once each year, and then not without blood.  He confessed Israel’s sins, asked for forgiveness for the nation, sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, and Israel’s sins were covered (not canceled) for one more year and got out of there fairly quickly.

After Jesus, Christians can go into the “Holy of Holies” anytime they wish, because the Holy Spirit lives within each Christian.  In the Old Testament, this was not the case at all.  There are many differences between Old Testament saints and New Testament saints, but salvation is not among them.  It is always based on believing God and being counted righteous because of it.  Can anyone dispute that?  Normative Dispensationalists certainly do not dispute it, but we have been accused of doing so for some time, in spite of the fact that we have shown repeatedly that this is not the case.  No one wants to hear it though, as they’d prefer to continue to believe we are heretics.  I guess that’s more fun for them.

Like Gerstner and MacPherson, many constantly refer back to the 1901 version of the Scofield Study System Bible, which makes a tiny mistake in the notes of a passage of John. This is in spite of the voluminous amount of notes and articles Scofield wrote that he also included in the 1901 version in which he obviously teaches that salvation is by grace alone.  Though it was immediately corrected in the next printing, that correction also simply became fodder for making the claim that it was now something that Scofield wanted to cover-up. Whatever…

What about Larry’s question number 5? In formulating pretribulation rapture teachings, is it wise to skip all around the Bible taking snippets from here and there, invoking the curse of Isaiah 28? Isn’t that actually the same as handling scripture deceitfully?

First, we do not take “snippets” of Scripture here and there. We allow Scripture to interpret itself. There is a huge difference between the two. Larry’s exegetical skills leave a good deal lacking frankly, and he seems unaware that the entire Bible was written by the same God (the ONLY God), who simply happened to use about 40 human authors, over a period of roughly 1,600 years.  That creates tremendous continuity.

While I agree that all Scripture needs to remain within its original context, there are many parts of Scripture that confirm other parts.  That is one of the beauties of God’s eternal Word, that no other book of any kind offers.

Sadly, Larry’s 6th question completely misses the boat. Here, he groups Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists and others in with the PreTrib Rapturists. Leaving Calvary Chapel out of it, consider both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists. When it boils down to it, the big problem with both of those groups is that they ADD something to salvation. For both, it is not salvation by faith alone, but salvation by faith plus works. How Larry is able to combine those cults with people who believe in a PreTrib Rapture is beyond me, unless he ADDS the requirement of having the proper view of Eschatology to the salvation equation. Even then, he is simply deciding that based on all of his loopty-loops and convoluted statements, the PreTrib Rapture is wrong, therefore it must be a cult. That is his opinion, based on faulty exegesis through and through. He says A equals B, therefore F equals A – what?

As far as Larry’s claim that the PreTrib Rapture people are able to figure out when Jesus will return, that is absolute nonsense. The PreTrib Rapture is always imminent, just like my death. I have no clue when I will die, nor do I have any clue when the Rapture might occur. There is an excellent chance I will die long before the Rapture occurs, but maybe not.  I do not simply count on the Rapture happening to whisk me away!

Both events are always as near to me as my shadow. I do not sit on my couch simply waiting for the Rapture (or my death) to happen, twiddling my thumbs while I wait. There is work to be done, so I work and watch. John says as much in 1 John 3:1-3 states, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” (emphasis added)

I am to look for his coming. I am to watch for it, but I am to keep working while I do.  When I do, I purify myself. What does that mean? It simply means that as I look to the time of His return, my mind will gravitate toward the spiritual and determine what is and what is not profitable. Compared to the riches of being with Christ, anything unprofitable will fall away from me.

Larry also falsely believes that the PreTrib Rapture STARTS the Tribulation, when in point of fact, based on Daniel 9:27, it is the Covenant that the Antichrist makes with Israel that actually BEGINS the Tribulation. The reason this starts the Tribulation? Because Israel will have literally made a pact with the devil! The PreTrib Rapture has nothing to do with the timing of the Tribulation, nor does it have anything to do with the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the Tribulation.  These events are not connected.

However, consider this: IF the covenant that Antichrist enters into with Israel is the thing that kicks off the Tribulation, then it is clear from that day onward, it would be easy to discern when the Tribulation will END, this based on the Jewish calendar of 360 days. IF this is the case, then obviously, when Jesus states that no one knows the “day or hour,” He of necessity MUST be referring to the Rapture, NOT His Second Coming.

In fact, later on in Matthew 24, He clearly points out that unlike the Rapture, which no one will see (except the results of it), His Second Coming will be broadcast across the sky (as lightning shines from the east to the west”). Beyond this, He tells His followers when things reach a certain point to “look up” because their redemption draws near! Take the time to read Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, the three versions of the Olivet Discourse and see for yourselves.

Does Larry believe in the actual Tribulation?  If so, does he think we will have no idea when it starts?  What, one day, we will wake up and simply say, “Hey, we must be in the Tribulation because it is pretty dark outside!”

What about the midpoint of the Tribulation, when Antichrist waltzes into the Holy of Holies in the rebuilt Temple and defiles it?  If that is the midpoint, can that not be used to count down from there to determine when the end of the Tribulation will be, even if we do not know when the Tribulation begins?  Uh…yep.

I further pointed out to Larry that if he wants to talk about two methods of salvation, let’s chat about Covenant Theology, which believes that there are only TWO covenants, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace.

The Covenant of Works essentially teaches that Adam and Eve were judged by their works, or their actions, not what they necessarily believed. They sinned because of what they did and after they sinned, God instituted the Covenant of Grace from that point on. This in brief is the meaning of the two covenants.

I do not see this in Scripture. From Day One of Creation, salvation has been by FAITH, not WORKS. The Covenant of Works is a holdover from Roman Catholicism. It teaches that when Adam and Eve ATE of the forbidden fruit, THAT is when they sinned. That does not square with the teaching of Scripture.

James 1 teaches us plainly:
“13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death,” (James 1:13-15)

James is clearly pointing out that sin begins within a person. Lust gives birth to SIN and sin gives birth to the accompanying action.  You cannot say that the action is sinful, but the desire or inordinate lust for it is not.  The decision to eat of the forbidden fruit was made within Adam and Eve’s heart.  The action followed.

Consider Jesus’ words on adultery. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), Jesus essentially states that anytime (make that EVERY time) a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, as far as God is concerned, that man has already committed ADULTERY with that woman, whether they actually have sexual relations or not.  Really? So, when a man lusts after a women, which takes place within his heart, you mean he is sinning?  Yes, plain and simple.  The action that stems from the desire creates tremendous negative consequences because it actually involves another person physically.

Take David.  He lusted after Bathsheba.  Had he immediately confessed it to God, David would have found forgiveness and it would have ended there (of course, let’s not forget he was actually supposed to be with his troops, not hanging around the palace in boredom).  David’s lust became or gave birth to outward actions.  While he likely envisioned sleeping with Bathsheba in his mind, that does not hurt either Bathsheba or her husband Uriah, though it is still sin.

David allowed his lust to lead him into greater sin by committing adultery with the object of his lust.  He then attempted cover his sin (just as Adam and Eve had tried to cover the results of their sin), by getting rid of Uriah.  The consequences of these unconscionable actions lasted for generations!  Though it still would have been sin, had David stopped at lusting with immediate confessed, the results would have been nothing at all like what actually transpired.

What I do in my heart – if it is SIN – is condemned by God. It does not have to become actual words, or visible actions, in order for it to be SINFUL. The outward ACT is merely an extension of the inward SIN. This is where I believe the Covenant of Works fails miserably as not being Scriptural. It was the DESIRE of Eve and Adam to EAT of the fruit of the forbidden tree. THAT was when and where sin BEGAN.  Eve was tempted and desire was created – bang! – that was sin because it gave birth to it and then death!

Look, people can debate aspects of Eschatology until they run out of breath. It usually serves no purpose and people simply wind up becoming angry at one another. That’s sad, but it absolutely crosses the line – as far as I’m concerned – when people start telling me (or anyone) that I am not only a heretic, but also I’m on my way to hell because of my belief in a PreTrib Rapture! That is nothing short of demagoguery.

The tragedy is that it is said so flippantly that it is clear from the person that they could care less about the other person’s salvation. They believe that they are correct about their judgment of a PreTrib Rapturist and they pronounce their judgment with glee. I think as Paul would say, this ought not to be.

If we cannot agree about aspects of Eschatology, then we need to disagree and leave it at that. We cannot – must not – move into the realm of casting aspersions on others solely because we think we have it all wrapped up theologically and they are blind morons. There is no humility in that. What it stems from is pure arrogance and nothing more.

Pride does go before a fall, and it will do just that, we can be sure.

PS – I recently went back to Larry’s blog and noted (without surprise) that my latest comment was also deleted, so I left the following for him to consider:
“Since it is very obvious that you cannot handle debate or discussion, which sheds light on the inadequacies of your exegesis on several fronts, I have taken the liberty (since your board is public) to quote you and incorporate your unstudied prattle and unscrupulous as well as judgmental comments in a 13-page rebuttal.

The rebuttal will appear in at least one upcoming newsletter and will also appear on my blog at http://www.studygrowknowblog.com

“You sir, are a coward. You can obviously dish it out, but you are also just as obviously unable to handle any type of accurate rebuttal of your remarks.
Your prideful and arrogant attitude will absolutely be your undoing, Larry. You may wish to humble yourself before the Lord while there is still time to do so.
In Christ,
Dr. Rev. Fred DeRuvo”

Revisiting Larry’s unkind words, let’s take one more look at the alleged timing of the Rapture, this according to Larry. You’ll recall he said:
“Yes Modres, you are a heretic!
If, after the pre-trib rapture, when all the people are “lifted up” to somewhere — you then make a mark on your calender for exactly 7 years hence, you will then know the exact day of Jesus’ 2nd coming!
You will have succeeded in “breaking scripture” that supposedly cannot be broken!
Jesus said in Acts 1:7 that it is NOT for man to know the times of God, yet the Pretrib rapture crap portrays a bunch of people who will be able to “figure it out”!
This is merely a subtle, convoluted form of forbidden, sinful, timesetting, which is heresy, which calls Jesus a liar!
You are welcome.”

My response to his comments were as follows:
“I responded in detail to your errors here, Larry, but you chose to delete my comments. Sad. Apparently, the truth bothers you.
The Tribulation BEGINS with the signing of the Covenant between the Antichrist and Israel (cf. Daniel 9:27). THAT begins the LAST “week” of the 70 weeks.

The Rapture does NOT begin the Tribulation. The signing of the covenant does. In any case, from that point onward, it is pretty easy for anyone who knows Scripture to determine WHEN the Tribulation will end, based on a 360 day Jewish year times 7.

In any case, since Jesus spoke of not knowing the day or hour, it seems obvious enough that He MUST have been speaking of the Rapture since there is nothing that this event is tied into. It is NOT part of the 2nd Coming at all. It is a completely separate event.

So IF the Tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant as Daniel 9:27 states, then exactly 7 years later (360 times 7), the same Tribulation ends. His 2nd Coming will be SEEN by everyone and in fact, as the time moves closer to that event, Jesus makes sure that His followers begin to look up, because their redemption is drawing near.

The Rapture timing is UNKNOWN and it hinges on nothing else at all. Once the Tribulation actually BEGINS, determining the end point is extremely easy. Even a cave man could do it, Larry.

So obviously, Christ’s reference to not knowing the day or hour is not referring to the end of the Tribulation, which ENDS when Christ RETURNS!
Let’s see, it’ll be what…one, maybe TWO days before you delete this response, because it does not toss accolades your way?

Apparently Larry, you can’t handle the truth…”

As you can see, it does bother me when someone is haughty enough to not only state that people like myself who believe the Bible teaches the PreTrib Rapture are wrong, but are also on their way to hell.  In this, they have severely overstepped their bounds.

My Christianity is based not on what I believe about the PreTrib Rapture, or any other aspect of Eschatology (with the exception of believing in the physical Second Coming of Jesus).  It is based on my belief regarding whom Jesus is and what He accomplished for me.  This is not head knowledge, but actual living belief.

I call Jesus Lord.  I submit my life to Him.  I pray as often as I think to do so.  I hope that my life is a witness for Him, but I do know I fail at times.  I love Him more than this life itself.  For Larry – or anyone – to come along and say that I am unsaved, and to relegate me to the same category as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, or any other cult that believes salvation comes by grace plus works is to enter into erroneous judgment, something that we are not allowed to do.

Yet Larry has found a very convoluted way of believing that he can judge my soul.  This is not only tragic but of course, it smacks of demagoguery.  Larry is not God.  He says he is a Christian, yet I sense no love when I read his words.  I see put downs, sarcasm, and a strong senses of superiority in Larry’s words.

I pray that Larry is truly saved, but it is a judgment I cannot make simply because I cannot see inside his soul.  You would think – or at least hope – that authentic Christians would find a way to assert their beliefs in a humble and loving way.

If God is as patient as He is, wanting no one to perish, where do Christians get off believing it is fine for them to be caustic to others?  There is no excuse and it is a good reminder to me that during those times when I want to be sarcastic, I’d better think twice.  Is what I am about to say going to bring glory or dishonor to God?  Am I in danger of judging another individual’s heart; something I cannot see?

These things are forgivable offenses and if I make those errors, I’d better be quick to confess them.

Salvation is based on my full belief in Jesus Christ as Lord of ALL Creation.  From this, my submission to Him should become more pronounced with each passing day.  It is not based on what I may think about the Rapture, the Tribulation, or other aspects of Eschatology.  We need to remind ourselves of this constantly.

Not only do folks like Larry offer a tremendous disservice to the Name of Christ, but as far as the world is concerned, they are sending mixed signals regarding the authentic nature of salvation.  They need to come down off their high horse and recognize their own inferiority compared to Jesus.  We are His servants, not His court jesters.  We need to commit and submit ourselves to Him and His purposes.  There is nothing higher than that.

How The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Denies The Gospel

Entry filed under: 9/11, alienology, Atheism and religion, Demonic, dispensationalism, Eastern Mysticism, emergent church, Gun Control, Islam, israel, Judaism, Life in America, new age movement, Posttribulational Rapture, Pretribulational Rapture, Religious - Christian - End Times, Religious - Christian - Prophecy, Religious - Christian - Theology, salvation, Satanism, Sharia Law, temple mount, ufology. Tags: are pretrib rapturists heretics?, larry's blog at test all things, pretrib rapturists going to hell?, pretribbers going to hell?.