Steve Wohlberg Does It Again! Yay!!!!

January 25, 2010 at 5:58 PM 29 comments

I was recently given a book by Steve Wohlberg called “Exploding the Israel Deception.”  After cruising through it, I will agree that some deception is definitely going on, but unfortunately, it is my opinion that Wohlberg is the one who is living under a deception.  I don’t say that to be mean at all.  My heart goes out to him (and he would likely say the say thing about me, since our views of Eschatology differ so greatly).  For me though, the reality is quite different from Wohlberg’s understanding of Scripture.

Wohlberg’s book is actually much more interesting for its omissions and his rather pointed attempts to prove his own position, but unfortunately, it is difficult for me to buy into the fact that even he believes what he is stating!  The book starts out at a gallop, right from the Forward and Doug Batchelor’s thoughts.  Batchelor is a well known individual within the Seventh-day Adventist movement.  In fact, he is one of the Seventh-day Adventist’s leading evangelists and pastors a church in Sacramento, CA.  Beyond this he is/was president of Amazing Facts, another Seventh-day Adventist ministry.  Batchelor is certainly not an idiot by any stretch.  I’ve listened to a number of his video and audio sermons.  He’s lively, informative, and sincere.  He also certainly seems to know what he is talking about. He is also a Jewish Christian (as is Steve Wolhberg).

The back cover of Wohlberg’s book makes this statement (in part):  “Steve Wohlberg is well qualified to address the subject of Israel and Bible prophecy.  A Jew from Los Angeles, Steve has for many years conducted Amazing Facts Bible Prophecy Seminars in Russia, Canada, New Zealand, Pakistan, and in cities across America…” Frankly, I have absolutely NO idea why being a Jew and a Christian automatically qualifies him (he is well-qualified), to address the subject of Israel and Bible prophecy.  This statement makes no sense, therefore it is nonsense.

I’m Italian, therefore I am well qualified to discuss the latest recipes related to Italian food.  It does not matter if it’s spaghetti, rigatoni, braciole, or anything else that Italians make.  Furthermore, because I am Italian, I am also automatically qualified to discuss the nuances of the Italian language.  The fact that I have never studied Italian is not a problem, because I am Italian, therefore I am Italian.  Or, maybe because I am Italian, I am well qualified to eat Italian food!  Maybe that’s it.

I apologize for my sarcasm, but Wohlberg’s statement is ludicrus, unless he was raised in an orthodox Jewish home, had spent a good portion of his life in Israel, spoke and wrote Hebrew fluently, and essentially lived as Jesus lived! Once again, I am really getting tired of statements like these, “A Jewish believer exposes false prophecies about Israel, the temple, and Armageddon.”  Declarative statements have little place in discussion and yes, I’m well aware of the fact that we all fall prey to them.  We all believe (firmly) that what we believe about God is the absolutely truth, and anyone who disagrees with us is simply wrong.  It is because of that knowledge, I can be dogmatic and declarative, right?

Actually, the only thing that we can truly be dogmatic about are the five fundamentals of the faith.  I will never (by God’s grace) deny my Savior.  I will never deny the integrity and infallibility of the Word of God.  I will never deny that Jesus – as God – was born into humanity through the virgin birth as a real human being, lived His life among us yet without sin, was crucified illegally, yet for the remission of sin, died by the shedding of His blood, was in the grave for three days and rose again.  These are areas of which I will not move.  I am resolute and I pray that I will always be that way.

In other areas, there is wiggle room.  There is room for discussion and give and take.  This certainly applies to the area of Eschatology.  Now, this does not mean that I do not have a strong opinion about this area, because like most who are interested in it, I do.  I make no apologies for that.  However, it is important for me to understand that not everyone will agree with my understanding of Scripture.  Not everyone will see it “my way” and because of that, there needs to be a great deal of compassion, love, understanding and patience.

Unfortunately, there is a good deal of animosity and rancor these days, within the area of Eschatology.  I pray that it will subside, because we as a Church – His Bride – are too focused on Eschatology and not focused enough on winning souls for the Lord.  What I mean by that is that it is my responsibility to bring people to the Lord.  I cannot change ONE single heart.  But I can (and better!) be a consistent witness of my faith and for my Savior.  God may choose to use some of the words I use when I talk to others about their need for salvation.  He may choose to open eyes as He did the thief on the cross roughly 2,000 years ago.  We need to understand that it is God who does that, not me, or you.  We plant, we water, but it is God who gains the harvest.

My next few blogs will go over aspects of Wohlberg’s book to hopefully shed some light on the possibility that he may not be as right as he believes he is about Eschatology.  He will not stand before Jesus and hear these words, “Steve Wohlberg!  Wonderful!  You understood EVERY aspect of Eschatology perfectly!  You did it!  You listened to me and learned!”  He will not hear those words, and I’m sure I will not hear those words regarding my understanding of Eschatology either.

In the meantime, the Christian – the authentic Christian – needs to live a balanced life.  While Eschatology is extremely important (if for no other reason than Jesus spoke of future coming events), because it can purify our minds.  It helps us to understand the shortness of our own lives here on earth.  We are but a vapor.  Will Eschatology save anyone?  No.  The most important, precious thing we can do for people is to tell them that they need Jesus.  If the Lord helps them see that they really do have an actual life and death need, then and only then will they seek THE solution:  Jesus Christ and His salvation.

Entry filed under: Atheism and religion, dispensationalism, Life in America, Posttribulational Rapture, Pretribulational Rapture, Religious - Christian - End Times, Religious - Christian - Prophecy, Religious - Christian - Theology, temple mount. Tags: , , , , , .

Taking Back Lost Time for Memorizing Scripture Scientist Believes Alien Life Already on Earth

29 Comments

  • 1. jeshuagal  |  May 29, 2011 at 12:10 AM

    Mr. Modres I appreciate your time you have put into reaping throught Mr. Wohlberg’s writings and (I say boldly with confidence) false teachings. Mr. Wohlberg and Mr. Batchelor have had something about their persons which seems well obviously wrong!

  • 2. Richard  |  March 17, 2011 at 10:02 PM

    Dear Brothers & Sisters in the Lord:
    I have some interesting information about Steve Wohlberg everyone may be interested in. Back in 2002, I was asked by a friend to examine a booklet written by Danny Shelton, President of 3 Angels Broadcasting, a Seventh-day Adventist TV Network located in Thompsonville, Illinois. The title of the book was “Does God Love Sinners Forever?” Essentially the book is about the SDA doctrine of Soul Sleeping. I thought this would be easy to reply to, but I discovered it took quite of bit of study to unearth the truth. I spent about two years studying this subject and when I was within several months of finishing my reply to my friend, the Lord spoke to me and directed me to write a rebuttal of Shelton’s booklet and then to give it to him. I finished my reply to Shelton’s book and called him up and told him I wanted to come over and give it to him (I only live 7 miles from 3ABN’s headquarters.) He said he was in a hurry, but he would wait about 10 minutes for me to get there. I raced the rebuttal over to his headquarters and gave it to him. He then said, “Do you know what I do with these?” I said, “No.” He said, “I analyze them and then use them to help me write my next book.” I said, “You won’t that with this material, I assure you.” He then proceeded to spend the next 45 minutes telling me how he had built this TV empire.

    The next day I got a call from John Lomacane, the pastor of the Thompsonville Seventh-Day Adventist Church, asking to meet with me and Danny to discuss the rebuttal I had written. I asked him if there was going to be anyone else present. He said, “No.” I then asked if I could bring my pastor. He agreed.

    Our meeting was scheduled for the first week in January, 2004. My pastor had an emergency and couldn’t come, so I went by myself. When I arrived, I met Lomocane and saw Shelton in another room. He led me to a meeting room upstairs where there were three other people, one of whom was Steve Wohlberg. Shelton never showed up, but the other four pounded me for 2 hours telling me that I was wrong and didn’t understand Bible prophecy, one of my favorite subjects. I made the point several times that the rapture was discussed by a number of early Christians, long before the 1840’s that Wohlberg claims. I told Wohlberg that I would send him a list of the early Christian leaders that discussed the rapture in their writings. Thus I started corresponding with Wohlberg about the rapture.

    Having read Fruchtenbaum’s Footsteps back in the 1980’s when he first published this book, I recommended it to him. He didn’t want to spend the $35 for the cost of the book, claiming he had heavy moving expenses because he was relocating somewhere in Washington. So I bought the book for him and sent it to him if he promised to read it in 6 months. I checked with him in the first month, and he claimed he was reading the book. I didn’t bother him after that, but six months later I contacted him and asked him if he had finished the book as he promised? He told me that he had read parts of the book. One of the conditions I got him to agree to before I bought the book, was that he would start reading from page one and read it straight through without skipping around. So it was obvious from the outset that Wohlberg’s word was absolutely worthless. I could see from that exchange that he had no intention of reading Footsteps, so I asked him to return the book and I would pay for the postage. You won’t believe his response! He writes back that he lost the book! What a Christian! And I haven’t heard from him since. No offer to replace the book or even to continue looking for the book. Nothing!

    I too have Fruchtenbaum’s book “Israelology.” It a classic in its field, and there is no doubt about “rightly dividing the word.”

    Most, if not all, of the SDA doctrine comes from not understanding the Jewish culture and totally disregarding God’s word. Their creed essentially makes God out to be a liar. God didn’t say what He wanted to say; He said something else. A perfect example is the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. According to SDA doctrine and creed, Jesus didn’t mean what he said in this story; this is actually a parable and Jesus meant to say something else. The bottom line is that God was not capable of saying what he wanted to say here; he needs the help of the SDA to clarify what he was really saying, which doesn’t even come close to what Jesus said!

    The real problem here is that those in the SDA cult belong to a religion of works rather than one of faith. This is obvious in their false doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration, or the belief that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. So the real problem here is that Wohlberg is not a Christian as he claims. As Paul says, most of the Jews have been blinded until all the Gentiles come in to the Kingdom. Unfortunately, Wohlberg is one of those blind Jews. He sees nothing. He understands nothing. He has no discernment whatsoever! I seriously doubt that Wohlberg will ever get out of the SDA cult.

    • 3. modres  |  March 17, 2011 at 10:20 PM

      Thanks for writing!

  • 4. Wade  |  March 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM

    Many things in the bible I cannot understand; many things in the bible I only think I understand;
    but there are many things in the Bible I cannot misunderstand!!! Sorry I cannot remember who wrote this saying.
    My main comment is that the term Jew is not an authenic name for the nation of Israel and actually Abraham, and Issac were not Hebrews (because if they were, Ishmael and Esau would be Hebrews also), but the Nation of Israel was formed from the descendants of Jacob (latter named Israel). Gods word states unconditional promises to the descendants of the promised seed of Abraham to Issac then to Jacob and then to his sons. Regardless of your interpertation of Romans 4: 9-25 the promises made to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and David are unconditonal and there is no way of getting around the fact that a remnant of Jacobs descendants will inherit the promised land not because of anything they have done but only on the spoken, written word of the Holy one of Israel. Satan and all the rulers of this world only have as much dominion as God himself allows. God is soverign and his word will not leave his mouth and return to him void or empty and his will governs the future. God is no captive of what occurs as history unfolds. God is the author of what unfolds, in the sense that He retains control over events so that whatever happens contributes to the accomplishment of his purposes. God can make promises about what will happen because his sovereign control of the future is such that even the free choices of human beings, made without divine coercion contribute to the accomplishment of what he has planned (I don’t have the authors name in front of me). God does everything to glorify his name first (no reply needed).

    • 5. modres  |  March 23, 2010 at 5:23 PM

      Hi Wade (and AMC),

      Thanks for the comments. Wade, regarding Abraham not being Jewish, you are correct. The nation of Israel was really a direct descendant of Jacob with his sons being the 12 Patriarchs.

      Jesus came from the lineage of Abraham and Isaac. Together, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (w/the 12 Patriarchs) are the “root” of the Olive Tree, of which Paul speaks in Romans 9-11. We are partakers of the benefits of being grafted into that tree. However, the Church is NEVER described as OVERTAKING Israel. Never. The Church partakes, but does not overtake (or replace, or move aside).

      The Church is GRAFTED onto that root/tree, but the tree continues to be in IN Israel’s vineyard (or field), and because of that, the tree is owned by Israel. In effect, Israel’s Remnant is actually HIDDEN in the Church during this age.

      Because of Abraham, ALL the people of the world are blessed with the opportunity to have salvation, regardless of ethnicity, gender or station in life. Other than this, the unconditional covenants that you reference are for Israel.

      I particularly appreciate what God says in a number of places throughout Ezekiel with respect to Israel. He indicates that He will turn them around, cleanse their unrighteousness and will write His laws on their hearts. He does this for only ONE purpose as explained by Ezekiel: to bring honor to His Name.

      Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went,” Ezekiel 36:22 (NASB; emphasis added).

      God is specifically speaking ABOUT and TO Israel. They are the ones who profaned His Name (and are STILL doing it). There will come a day when God is going to use ISRAEL to bring honor to His Name. To say that the “new” Israel is the Church is asinine since the Church did not dishonor His Name to begin with. Anyone who becomes an authentic Christian is declared righteous and justified. This can never be rescinded (Romans 8).

      Besides this, when God DOES use Israel to bring honor to His Name, the ENTIRE world will notice it. They would notice no such thing if merely done through the Church.

      Of course, the other thing is that Israel is normally seen as the wayward WIFE of Jehovah, in the OT. The Church is the sparkling Bride of Christ, yet we have not had the marriage ceremony yet. The nation of Israel was not only married to God the Father, but He also gave her a writ of divorcement, yet promised to bring her back to Him. It is impossible to say that the Church is what He was talking about, simply because it makes no logical sense at all.

      Thanks again for your comments, guys. God is ABSOLUTELY, 100% sovereign. I agree completely. Satan only does what God allows, and that is all he will EVER be able to do.

  • 6. Alf  |  March 23, 2010 at 12:09 PM

    Very well said, Modres.

    Janet, I don’t know how you can claim that Dispensationalists argue from anger and hostility yet offer no proof from Scripture. I do not note any exegesis in your comment.

    Modres’ posts are a response to Steve Wohlberg’s books and articles against Dispensationalism. When you write books making allegations about particular systems and the character of those who adhere to them it is perfectly natural expect that these attacks will be addressed on their merit. This is what Modres has done here.

    With his permission I submit the following links to demonstrate that Dispensationalism does “occasionally” refer to Scripture when formulating doctrine. Pay particular attention to chapters 9 & 10 in the first link.

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/romans/romans.htm

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm

    In Him

    Alf

  • 7. Janet  |  March 23, 2010 at 10:29 AM

    Beth,
    you have it right. Romans 9:6 – For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

    It is the same today, in the Church, not all are believers and Spiritually enlightened. The Bible is all about Jesus first, and the Israel of God – faithful believers from the beginning to the end.

    Just as there was ‘fleshly Israel’ mixed in with the true believers of Israel in the OT, there are chaff mixed in the wheat in the Church.

    These people use everything to argue from, including anger and hostility, but do not give any proof from Scripture.

    Shake the sand from your feet and walk away. They cannot see.

    In Christ,
    Janet

    • 8. modres  |  March 23, 2010 at 10:42 AM

      Actually Janet, both you and Beth have it completely wrong. In Romans 9-11, Paul’s main subject is Israel, not the Church or Gentiles.

      If I said, “Not everyone who goes to Church is really part of the Church (a Christian),” you would understand me to be saying that there are unbelievers who attend church who believe they are saved, but since there has been no spiritual transaction (John 3), there is no new birth. This is exactly what Paul is saying about Jews.

      When Paul says, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel,” he means exactly that and he is NOT referencing Gentiles here.

      What Paul is saying is that just because people were PART of the nation of Israel, it did not, nor does mean that they were/are AUTHENTIC JEWS, just as some who ATTEND church are not really PART of the invisible Church (because they are not authentic Christians).

      Like the Pharisees, simply being BORN a Jew means nothing. What matters is whether or not the individual Jew has been circumcised in their heart. That is what makes a Jew an authentic Jew in God’s eyes. Did/do individual Jews BELIEVE His Word, or not? If not, they are not part of His Remnant. Did/do individual Gentiles who profess to be Christians BELIEVE God’s Word or not? If not, they are not part of the invisible Church.

      This is also why so many Jews “fell” through judgment in the wilderness. At Kadesh-Barnea, 3,000 Jews were judged to death by God. It is clear that these Jews were NOT authentic Jews, who believed God, but were rebels, choosing to NOT believe God.

      When the Israelites were turned away from the Promised Land because of unbelief, ALL of the men within the nation who chose to believe the 10 spies (that they could not overcome the people of the Promised Land), instead of Joshua and Caleb, who BELIEVED that God would give them the victory, DIED in the wilderness. They DIED because they did NOT believe God. They died because their hearts had not been circumcised by believing Him. Outwardly they were Jews, but not inwardly and that is what matters to God.

      Having a circimcised heart only occurs when the individual Jew, like Abraham (as the father of the Jewish nation), believes God and it is counted as righteousness (cf. Genesis 15). Being declared righteous by God has ALWAYS been by faith, never works. A person’s good works (which are acceptable by God) flow from a circumcised, believing heart. A Jew who “works” without a circumcised heart, is no different than a professing Christian who has never truly believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. In both cases, the heart has not been cleansed and made righteous through believing.

      Paul’s comments here apply specifically to the nation of Israel, not the Church at all, which he has already dealt with in chapters previous to Romans 9-11. Gentiles are blessed through Abraham because salvation is EXTENDED to us through Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ in His humanity CAME from the nation of Israel.

      The authentic Jew (one who is spiritually circumcised in the heart) has always been what God calls the Remnant. During Paul’s day, any Jew that became a believer was part of the Remnant. Gentiles – no matter how you would like it to say that – never become Jews (spiritual or otherwise) by becoming believers.

      I am no more a Jew than a dog can give birth to a cat. It would really be nice if people would stop taking things out of their context. Keeping things within their context would eliminate a multitude of errors currently found within Christendom, and within sects/cults like Seventh-day Adventism.

      The famous passage in Galatians “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus,” (Galatians 3:28 NASB), refers to the fact that salvation is EXTENDED to all people, without considering ethnicity, gender or station in life. Paul is obviously NOT intending with this passage to eliminate the lines of demarcation between ethnicities, gender or station in life, because if he was doing that, then he would be contradicting himself since he LATER outlined roles for men and women in the Church.

      Beyond this, even AFTER Paul wrote Galatians, throughout the book of Acts, wherever he went, he ALWAYS went to the Jew first, offering them the truth of salvation in Christ. IF/WHEN they rejected him and his message, he THEN went to Gentiles. Paul always kept the two groups separate. Those Jews who became believers became part of the Remnant of his day, and in effect, have something similar to a dual-citizenship; one in the nation of Israel and one in the Church. Salvation is for ALL people.

      If Paul really believed as YOU believe, he would have stopped making a difference between those of the nation of Israel and the Church, but throughout the book of Acts, to the end of it, Paul was still going to the Jew first, and then the Gentile. This is completely at odds with your understanding and interpretation of Romans 9-11. This is why Steve Wohlberg is wrong. It is why Beth is wrong, and it is why you are wrong. Any Gentile who believes they are “spiritual Jews” believes that based on an incorrect exegesis of Romans 9-11, as you have done.

      By the way, I am not angry OR hostile. In fact, I believe I have been extremely patient with Beth, who became argumentative and sarcastic herself. I also believe that I referred to the Bible plenty of times. You would say you do the same thing, however taking things out of context simply makes the Bible say what you want it to say.

      I thank you for your comments.

  • 9. modres  |  February 16, 2010 at 6:34 PM

    I thought seeking and doing God’s will were one in the same and I do not know why you made a distinction here. Sounds like you were just trying to be right by making me look wrong.”

    No, my understanding is that they are NOT the same. If you are wrong, it is because you are wrong, not because I tried to make you look wrong. If my understanding of it is wrong, then I am wrong.

    Regarding the Six- Day War, the USS Liberty was PART of it, but it did not START it.

    If you really believe what you have stated about Ahmadinejad, then you have not read all of what Ahmadinejad has stated. Not sure what you’ve been reading.

    that little piece of real estate isn’t the only thing he will rule when he comes back.”

    I did not say that He would only rule Israel. I said He would rule FROM Jerusalem on David’s Throne, but He will physically rule the entire world.

    Look Beth, I’ve tried to be polite and kind and I believe I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it is clear that you are more interested in arguing than even attempting to understand my position. You said it yourself, you “already know what I believe.”

    So I have responded to your comments as I’m doing now, and you take umbrage at them because you believe I am attacking you. I am not attacking you at all.

    Believe what you would like to believe, that’s fine. You obviously believe that Israel is deserving of judgment, while everyone else can go scot free. What is developing in this world is another holocaust and with the way the world’s attitude toward Israel IS, it won’t be long in coming.

    I believe I have tried my best to tell you that I do NOT support Israel unconditionally. I support what I believe God is doing in the Middle East and WILL do in the Middle East. He will do ALL of it for only one reason: for the sake of His holy Name, which Israel has defiled. I’m not sure why you continue to arrive at the wrong conclusion after reading my words.

    You are obviously seeing what you want to see in my responses. I do not know how to be more clear to you. I have repeatedly stated that Israel is DEPRAVED and CORRUPT, but apparently, these two adjectives have not been good enough for you.

    People like yourself Beth, will only be happy when Israel is wiped out. You will smugly look down your nose and say that they deserved every bit of it.

    In fact, I was talking to one Messianic Jew who holds opinions as you do. He FINALLY admitted to me that he actually HATES Jews. Can you believe that and he is a Jew? Two days later, he said, “What I MEANT by that is…” and then tried to give me another reason.

    There is NO room for hate at all in the Christian’s life. Do I HATE Ahmadinejad? Nope, I actually pray for the man’s salvation. Do I hate leaders of the other countries? Nope. Do I support Netanyahu regardless? Nope, but I also pray for his salvation.

    I do not want to argue with you, Beth. Life is way too short for that and there is no point to it because we are getting NOWHERE. This is MY Blog. This is where I share MY thoughts and MY beliefs. I wrote something that you did not like and you stated your opinion.

    I have been MORE than fair to you in allowing ALL of your responses to post, completely unedited. I have tried to explain my position to you, but you STILL insist on believing that I mean something else. You are determined it seems to “prove me wrong,” but the reality is that IF I am wrong, I am more than willing to allow God’s Spirit to show me that. You, on the other hand, like many Anti-Zionists, are filled with anger, vitriol and hatred, I’m sorry to say. Unlike yourself, I KNOW that I will NOT stand before Christ and hear the words, “Wow, Fred, you got it on ALL points! You never made a theological mistake!” It won’t happen, and it won’t happen for you or anyone else either, which is all the more reason why we need to approach God’s Word with absolute humility because we are seeking God’s intended meaning, not what we THINK He is saying to us.

    I cannot help you and I will not be your whipping boy. You are not interested in dialogue, but rhetoric and castigating. No matter how vociferously you continue to state your BELIEFS about the Six-Day War, or anything else, all I continue to see is a person who does not know how to exegete Scripture. We are on two different fields altogether. Go argue with someone else, all right? I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

  • 10. Beth  |  February 16, 2010 at 5:58 PM

    Israel is spiritual. Jesus said in “John 18:36 My Kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

    Jesus died for the whole world, not just for Israel and so that little piece of real estate isn’t the only thing he will rule when he comes back. Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came wih the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    By the way, I thought seeking and doing God’s will were one in the same and I do not know why you made a distinction here. Sounds like you were just trying to be right by making me look wrong.

    Now, since we are all suppose to be one in Christ even with those we do not agree with, does that include Ahmadinejad and the nation of Iran? I was just asking because everyone deserves to be placed on an equal playing field here.

    I can’t believe you gave the U.N. a plug here. If there was ever an entity with evil intentions it would be the U.N. Talk about a group of occultists. So I wouldn’t be bragging about how great the U.N. was in forming Israel. It was a self-serving move on their part for sure.

    Regarding the 6 Day war. That was the war in which the USS Liberty was hit by Israeli war planes and the details behind that are no conspiracy. That really happened and the Israelis deliberately attacked a defenseless ship because the ship was intercepting radio messages during the war that implicated Israel in unfair war practices such as breaking a cease fire and executing Egyptian prisoners of war. We lost 34 men in that incident and the only reason Lyndon B. Johnson didn’t successfully sink the ship was because there was a Russian ship that came to the Liberty’s aid and was a witness to the attack. If it hadn’t been for the Russian ship, the Liberty would have been sunk and the Egyptians would have gotten blame and Israel would have gotten off Scott Free. One can only imagine how many False Flag attacks Israel has gotten away with, including 9/11, although many are now questioning that incident considering the case of the “The Dancing Israelis.” Now how did those 5 Israelis know to set up their tri-pod on Liberty Island to “Document the Event?” Hmmmm……

    By the way, Ahmadinejad did not say he wanted to blow Israel off the map. What he did say was that he hoped the present regime ruling Israel would fall. Rabbi Weiss of Jews Against Zionism along with other Orthodox Jews have talked over the horrible situation regarding the Zionist regime with Ahmadinejad so it would seem he is not out for Jewish blood or those Orthodox Jews wouldn’t have gotten past his door. Iran is not a nuclear threat, but Israel is. Don’t Israel’s nuclear weapons count? Do you know what Netanyahu said after 9/11? Here it is….

    “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq,” Ma’ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events “swung American public opinion in our favor.”

    Seems he didn’t care about the lives lost, he only cared about the benefits to the nation of Israel, but then he’s also good friends with ole Lucky Larry Silverstein. Think he had prior knowledge of 9/11? One can only imagine what he knew.

    Jesus is the King of Israel, but not of the one in the Middle East. Because Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord and prevailed (repented of his sin) he was given the new name Israel, likewise, all who repent and turn to Jesus for their salvation will become a part of that same Israel no matter whether they are Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist etc. and he will be our King and we will be His people forever and ever.

    God bless you,
    Beth

  • 11. modres  |  February 16, 2010 at 12:28 AM

    Hi Beth,

    Actually, you do not know what I believe. You know, it’s funny, but from people like you, I am called any number of things (not by you necessarily, but by people who think like you do). You believe I support Israel unconditionally. Others accuse me of being anti-Semitic.

    Here is the reality. I support GOD and HIS plans FOR Israel as a nation, and I believe those plans are clearly dilineated in Ezekiel (among other places). I cannot say it any more clearly than that.

    I realize how corrupt the nation of Israel IS, but they are no more corrupt than the United States and some other countries.

    Whether you think so or not, you APPEAR to be holding Jews up to a higher standard.

    Take a moment, and REMOVE the people from the equation. What do you have left? You have LAND. The Bible clearly states that the LAND of Israel is GOD’S land – always has been and always will be. It also clearly states that from God’s perspective, Jerusalem is the CENTER of this world.

    Your second to last sentence concerns me. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Yes, we have a just God, but many of my actions will burn up like chaff when I stand before Him, though my salvation will never be in question.

    It will not matter that I was honest and sincere in seeking His will. What matters is that I DID His will in HIS strength. Anything other than that, no matter how sincere, how honest, or how desirous will fall away and burn in the fire of judgment.

    I would agree that we are to be ONE in Christ, but that applies to those we have differences with, as long as those differences do not impinge on the fundamentals of the faith (salvation, deity of Christ, His virgin birth, inerrancy of Scripture, etc.).

    Eschatology plays no part in these fundamentals. So, while you and I may disagree, what God judges is not your opinion vs. mine. What He judges is HOW we treat one another in the midst of our differences. THAT is how we either maintain this oneness, or we break it.

    I have NEVER, nor would ever support Israel unconditionally. What many folks seem to be forgetting is that as a political entity, Israel was GIVEN the right to be a nation in 1948 by the U.N. They acted on that.

    Ever SINCE then, one group or country after another has come against them (you’ll remember the 6-Day War, I’m sure). If ARABS and MUSLIMS can have virtually EVERY country that surrounds Israel’s TINY plot of land, and STILL want Israel wiped off the map, there is something terribly wrong with that.

    Israel has EVERY right to be a nation, just as Iran has every right to be a nation, just as Syria, Jordan, Lybia, Egypt, Iraq and other Arab-based countries have a right to be nations. What they do NOT have a right to do is bully Israel unmercifully under the pretense that Israel supposedly STOLE the land she now has.

    I could care less if certain Jews or Gentiles think my motives are suspect for supporting Israel. It ANGERS me that I can think of NO country in the entire WORLD (including the United States, thanks to our current president) who has ANY support whatsoever for Israel. It is unconscienable to me, yet there it is.

    You know what is even MORE strange? The fact that these religious rules are applied ONLY to Israel. They rejected God, they crucified Christ, they rebelled, yada, yada, yada. They do not deserve to have their own land (and I’ve heard too many professing Christians make those statements).

    Funny though, that Arafat can create a group called Palestinians and everyone believes they deserve the land. Out of all the countries surrounding Israel, ONLY Israel comes under the religious condemnation because of their connection with Jehovah. Neither Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Lybia, or any other Islamic country has to pay the piper. It does not matter how horrendous their crimes against their citizens are. What matters is that the world BELIEVES that when Ahmadinejad screams for Jewish blood, no one says “boo.”

    This is exactly WHY I believe you are holding the Jews to a much higher standard. You do not have the same type of rhetoric for the other countries. It’s only for Israel. The Jews are bad. Israel has no right to exist.

    The problem of course, is that you keep going back to the fact that children of God should be one in Christ. That would be nice, but it is a pipedream. Who decides WHO is and who is NOT a true child of the King? If it is not based on theology, what is it based on?

    You support Steve Wohlberg (and I would assume the Seventh-day Adventist Church), in spite of their twisted theology. They have mixes of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, and Roman Catholicism, in spite of the fact that their hatred of Roman Catholicism is what it is.

    Your quote of Caiphas is interesting. You seem to think that Caiphas actually KNEW that Jesus was God’s Son. Did you ever consider that the decision he made was based purely on politics? When John states that Caiphas prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, he was not under that impression at all. Neither were those who yelled for Christ’s blood and Pilate remarked “I wash my hands of His innocent blood.” The crowd responded “His blood be on us!!” They had no clue what they were saying.

    In fact, the soldiers who cast lots for Jesus’ cloak had NO clue that they were fulfilling Scripture either.

    You know Beth, I hope this does not sound rude to you as it is not meant to be rude. But I am so concerned about the way people view God’s Word. I KNOW that I am not perfect at it by any stretch, but it seems to me that I am coming in contact with people on a regular basis who are unable to exegete even the simplest of passages.

    All I can say is that this is to be expected by those who allegorize Scripture. It is also expected by those who do not compare Scripture with Scripture.

    I really appreciate your comments, Beth. Thank you for them. I wish you could understand that the book of Ezekiel states clearly that God will fulfill His promises to Israel for the sake of His holy Name, and for no other reason.

    You accuse me of supporting Israel unconditionally. Politically, I believe they have a right to defend themselves. Much more importantly though, the tragedy is that many of those within Israel will die without knowing Christ. That is TRAGIC.

    With respect to Israel though, I need you to know (whether you believe it or not), that I support GOD regarding His will and His purposes for the LAND of Israel and for His holy city of Jerusalem.

    When Christ returns physically, He will reign from David’s throne. He will reign for 1,000 years, and then He will turn to His Father and give Him the deed to earth, the very deed that was taken by Satan in the Garden of Eden.

    If Christ does NOT physically reign from David’s throne, in Jerusalem, He will not be fulfilling the prophecies that say He will. If He fails to fulfill the prophecies, then He will be unable to SHOW the entire universe that this world, which is in the hands of the evil one, has been taken back by Jesus Christ.

    The entirety of Genesis through Revelation is one, huge CIRCLE. I fully support all that God is doing not only in this world, but specifically in Israel, because THAT land is HIS land. The fact that human beings think they can divvy up Jerusalem as if THEY own it is the highest form of arrogance.

    I’ll tell you what, Beth (and I apologize for the length of this)…Ezekiel 38-39 speak of a Northern Alliance Invasion of Israel that is to take place before the Tribulation. The way things are moving, it almost appears as though it could happen any day now. The prime movers are in their place. Ezekiel quotes God as saying that HE (God) will put a hook in Gog’s mouth. He will turn Gog around and drive him toward Israel in an attempted invasion.

    Interestingly enough though, Israel will not raise one finger to help themselves because God will do it. According to Ezekiel, the world will marvel, but they will still NOT believe in God. If that happens though, will YOU believe then?

    Take care, Beth. Thanks for stopping by and presenting your view of the situation.

  • 12. Beth  |  February 15, 2010 at 7:43 PM

    I did look you up on Amazon.com and since I came from a Dispensational background I already know what your beliefs are. What always baffled me was how the churches could ever go along with a Jewish state when their claim on the land was always conditional on obedience. The nation of Israel is very secular and even many Orthodox Jews in Israel today see the hypocrisy of the Zionist government there. Visit the Jews Against Zionism web site and see the images of Orthodox Jews protesting Netanyahu when he spoke at the U.N. They protested because they know the Zionists conspired with the Nazis so they could grab Palestinian land and they resent Netanyahu using the Holocaust as a political propadanda tool for the Zionist agenda. It dishonors the people who died there. The native people there actually lived in relative peace until the Zionists went in and displaced them.

    We are all sinners, but this unconditional support of Israel no matter what they do is ridiculous and certainly not Christian. Religion and politics should never mix whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.

    Oh, and speaking of conspiracies, just remember that evil always works in secret. Rats do not like the light and it was nothing less than a conspiracy that put an innocent, holy man on a cross to die. Look at Caiaphas, he knew Jesus was God’s son and prophesied that Christ would die to make us all one in him, but Caiaphas wanted to stay separated to keep himself elevated. Isn’t that what the nation of Israel is about, separation.

    John 11:49-54 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    So what does this passage say about the children of God. It says that they “should gather together in one.”

    There’s a big difference between a repentant sinner and one who hardens his heart and conspires to do evil for worldly gain. I am not holding the Jews to a higher standard than anyone else, and I also realize that not all Jews are Zionists. In fact, Zionism is totally politically motivated and really has nothing at all to do with Judaism so your accusing me of holding Jews to a higher standard does not hold water here. I am condemning a political movement.

    I am just trying to stand up for the truth here. Jesus wants us to be ONE in Him. Separation was not part of the plan according to God’s message sent to Caiaphas and, because of a hard heart, he CONSPIRED against him and had him killed.

    I hope I have made a few valid points here for you. I appreciate the free books, but it is pointless as I already know what your message is. I actually used to Watch Zola Levitt’s TV program. I eventually disagreed with his stand on Israel, but I found him to be sincere in his message. We have a very just God and even though we may not always get it right, God judges the sincerity of the heart and the honesty with which we seek his will.

    God bless you, Beth

  • 13. modres  |  February 15, 2010 at 12:19 PM

    Hey AMC,

    I tried emailing you, but it came back returned…

  • 14. modres  |  February 15, 2010 at 11:26 AM

    Beth

    One other thing for now. I’m not sure how you are witnessing to your husband, but might I suggest you take a look at http://www.wayofthemaster.com? They show the way to speak to a person’s conscience, not their intellect.

    If your husband can come to see that he has broken God’s laws, then he needs to see that IF God were to judge him based on God’s Laws, would he be found guilty or innocent? IF he comes to understand that he would be found GUILTY, then there is only ONE way to avoid condemnation and that is through Jesus Christ.

    If your husband has any knowledge of the Torah, or the Mosaic Law, then he would have to agree that he has broken the Law.

    He has probably lied in his life, which makes him a liar.

    He has probably stolen something (even a pencil from work), which makes him a thief.

    He has probably looked on a woman with lust in his heart, which makes him an adulterer according to Jesus.

    If he has ever been so angry with someone he would have liked to have seen them dead, he is a murderer.

    If he were to stand before God, having broken these laws, he would be standing before Him as a lying, theiving, adultering, murderer. If God judged him on the basis of His righteous laws, would he be found guilty or innocent?

    The reality is that when people are evangelized in this way, it is their CONSCIENCE that condemns them and we completely bypass their intellect.

    I will pray for you as you model Christianity for your husband. If you’ll be good enough to share your husband’s first name with me, I will add him to my prayer list.

    May the Lord bless you as you endeavor to submit your life to Him, in order for Him to work in and through you, all for His glory.

  • 15. amc  |  February 14, 2010 at 11:54 PM

    Beth, I’m personally well aware of the Liberty incident. http://www.libertyincident.com/

    Regarding some of your other problems and accusations against Israel you may want to consult CAMERA:
    http://www.camera.org/

    You should also avail yourself to materials on Palestine Facts: http://palestinefacts.org/

    Regardless of Israel’s past, present or future errors and rejection of Christ, or any other anecdotal stories; Scripture indicates that God will win them back to Himself and the church does not inherit the land promises made to them. And God’s divine purpose is the ONLY thing that counts. One of the reasons for the Great Tribulation is to redeem them back to Himself. Holding this belief does not in any way impact the Great Commission insofar as we Christians are concerned.

    I’m frankly a little surprised at some of your views regarding Israel and Dispensationalism’s alleged wall building. You may want to visit Zola Levitt’s and Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s sites. Jewish Voice Ministries is another one of many. These people specialize in evangelizing Jews. Contrary to a statement made by Steve in one of his articles, Dispensationalism teaches only one way to salvation for everyone.

    Hopefully Modres won’t mind my linking this but here’s a site that has plenty of data refuting Replacement Theology: http://www.theologicalstudies.org/Supersessionism.html

  • 16. Beth  |  February 14, 2010 at 9:54 PM

    My response to this is that I married a Jew and have been witnessing to him for over 20 years of our married life and quite frankly the Dispensationalists do the Jews no favors by calling them the “Chosen People” when they are in a state of disbelief. It is against the Great Commission and I am thankful that just like Steve Wohlberg my husband would embrace his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is no difference between Jew or Gentile in God’s eyes. We are to be one in Christ and Dispensationalists build the wall back up that Christ tore down. Hitler was a cruel Satanic dictator, but did you know that there was a transfer agreement between the Zionists and the Nazis? They collaborated to steal Palestine by forcing Jews to go to Palestine and had other countries close their borders to Jews trying to flee Germany. Why do you think Roosevelt turned back a boat load of Jews preventing them from entering this country and wouldn’t let them in and instead made them go back to Germany to die in the death camps. My husband lost relatives in those camps and I blame both the Nazis and the Zionists for that atrocity.
    And since we’re on the subject, you might want to research the assault on the USS Liberty and do a little research on Larry Silverstein who owned the Twin Towers and the role of Kroll Associates, an Israeli company, who plugged the building full of thermite explosives. Seems ole Luck Larry always ate breakfast at Windows on the World everyday and just happened not to show up on 9/11/01. How convenient. Many Zionists who work in our government are also allowed dual citizenship of both Israel and the U.S. There should be laws against this as you can’t be loyal to two countries. Read Paul Findley’s book “They Dare to Speak Out” and it will quite possibly give you a little insight as to the control Israel has over this country. Beth

    • 17. modres  |  February 14, 2010 at 11:49 PM

      My response to this is that I married a Jew and have been witnessing to him for over 20 years of our married life

      I don’t understand…were you a Christian when you married your Jewish husband, who is obviously not a Christian?

      and quite frankly the Dispensationalists do the Jews no favors by calling them the “Chosen People” when they are in a state of disbelief.

      I have no clue how you can say that the Jews are NOT God’s chosen people. Did God choose them or not? The Jews ARE God’s chosen people, because it is through the nation of Israel that God CHOSE to reveal His salvation. BUT the Jews are only His chosen people as a NATION of Israel. God ALWAYS deals with Israel as a NATION.

      It is against the Great Commission and I am thankful that just like Steve Wohlberg my husband would embrace his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

      It is not against the Great Commission. The problem is that – yes – some Christians believe that BECAUSE the Jews are God’s chosen people (and that is an undeniable fact), then they do not view them as doing anything wrong. Obviously, this is not true. By the way, I would like to emphatically state that aspects of Eschatology have NOTHING to do with a person’s salvation. Wohlberg may very well be saved (or not since Seventh-day Adventist views add works to maintain salvation), but his Eschatological understanding is severely lacking, in my view.

      There is no difference between Jew or Gentile in God’s eyes.

      This is true, so why is it that YOU hold the Jews to a higher standard than Gentiles?

      We are to be one in Christ and Dispensationalists build the wall back up that Christ tore down.

      Yes, we ARE one in Christ, BUT Christ is the One who makes that happen in and through us. I constantly hear people referring to the Galatians passage where Paul tells us that there is no difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, male and female. People look at that and they go, “See? There is NO difference between people, but the ‘Dispies’ create that artificial wall that God took down!”

      That is NOT what Paul is saying, but this is the problem when people take things out of context. Wohlberg does this over and over. The entire Galatians letter is dealing with SALVATION. Paul is saying that where SALVATION is concerned, ALL people, regardless of gender or ethnicity have EQUAL access to God in Christ FOR salvation.

      IF there is NO difference between anyone, then WHY does Paul take pains to outline GENDER RESPONSIBILITIES in letters he wrote AFTER he wrote Galatians where he states that there is no difference? He explains to Timothy and Titus the role of women and the role of men. IF there was absolutely NO difference in the NOW, then there is no way that same-sex marriage would be wrong, it would be fine for women to be pastors and a number of other things. The only way to bring these passages into alignment is to understand that Paul is speaking of SALVATION and he is also pointing the FUTURE fact that we will ONE day, all LITERALLY be one in Christ.

      In Ephesians 2, Paul says that I am seated with Christ NOW in the heavenly realms. I sure don’t feel like it at times. Could it be Paul is saying that IT IS AS GOOD AS HAPPENING because of the guarantee of that happening IN Christ?

      Hitler was a cruel Satanic dictator, but did you know that there was a transfer agreement between the Zionists and the Nazis? They collaborated to steal Palestine by forcing Jews to go to Palestine and had other countries close their borders to Jews trying to flee Germany. Why do you think Roosevelt turned back a boat load of Jews preventing them from entering this country and wouldn’t let them in and instead made them go back to Germany to die in the death camps. My husband lost relatives in those camps and I blame both the Nazis and the Zionists for that atrocity.

      Never heard of that, and I doubt seriously that it happened. But I will certainly check on that. If it DID happen, then JEWS would be the first ones to write about it, wouldn’t they? I have a TON of books by Jews (you would call it zionist propaganda), so I’ll start checking it out.

      My wife’s family were also sent to camps, but that’s another story.

      And since we’re on the subject, you might want to research the assault on the USS Liberty and do a little research on Larry Silverstein who owned the Twin Towers and the role of Kroll Associates, an Israeli company, who plugged the building full of thermite explosives. Seems ole Luck Larry always ate breakfast at Windows on the World everyday and just happened not to show up on 9/11/01. How convenient. Many Zionists who work in our government are also allowed dual citizenship of both Israel and the U.S. There should be laws against this as you can’t be loyal to two countries. Read Paul Findley’s book “They Dare to Speak Out” and it will quite possibly give you a little insight as to the control Israel has over this country.

      Uh…Beth, I’ve heard those conspiracy theories. As a matter of fact, you sound exactly like Carol A. Valentine, who I quoted extensively in my book “Anti-Zionism’s Vitriolic Allegations.” She is something as are many of those who believe as she does! One conspiracy after another, and you know who gets all the blame for EVERYTHING? Jews of course! Second in line to the Jews are the Zionists and especially the Dispensationalists! Valentine minces no words when showing her hatred for Jews and for “fundies.” She refers to the CIA as America’s biggest traitor to America. The FBI is not far behind.

      What folks like yourself CONSTANTLY miss is that people who are FALLEN are CORRUPT! You point to Larry Silverstein, and I could point to a million Gentiles who are JUST as corrupt. Are you NOT aware of how many Jews God Himself judged and killed after the Exodus? Just because a Jew happened to be part of Israel after they left Egypt, does NOT mean that they individually were THE chosen Jews. That’s like saying that just because someone ATTENDS a Church, he/she IS a Christian! Do you hear what you are saying?

      This is what the WORLD says when they unflinchingly point out all the “hypocrites” in the Church! Christ stated that the Church would be infiltrated with tares!

      NOT every Jew is a uniquely CHOSEN person. The NATION of ISRAEL is what God CHOSE to REVEAL His Word, His Will, His salvation to the rest of the world. He did NOT choose individual Jews, except for individual men to LEAD the nation. Many Jews DIED in the wilderness because of their UNBELIEF and REBELLION. At Kadesh-Barnea, 3,000 Jews died in judgment. The day the Church was born in Acts 2, 3,000 Jews RECEIVED Christ.

      People like yourself will NEVER get it unless the Lord opens your eyes. When God speaks of ISRAEL, He is speaking of a NATION. There are MANY corrupt, depraved Jews just as there are MANY corrupt and depraved Gentiles.

      Your husband UNLESS he turns to Christ is NOT a chosen Jew. If he DIES without Christ (and I pray the Lord helps him realize his NEED for Christ), then he is no different than any Gentile or other Jew who dies without Christ. Being born a Jew is NOTHING. It is NO different than being born an Italian. God WORKS through the NATION of Israel, not INDIVIDUAL Jews. He ONLY works through individual Jews since Christ as part of His Body (Church).

      Should your husband realize his need for Christ, and RECEIVE salvation, then he would automatically become part of the REMNANT of this generation, as Paul was part of the REMNANT of his generation. There is NO salvation apart from Jesus Christ and too many people accuse Dispensationalists of espousing two different modes of salvation; one for Gentiles and one for Jews. That is NOT true. Salvation has ALWAYS been by faith in God’s Word.

      However, God’s WILL for me AFTER salvation is far different than His will for BETH, but we BOTH receive salvation the exact same way. The fact that God WILL once again deal with the NATION of Israel takes nothing away, nor adds to His ONLY method of salvation. His will and purposes are DIFFERENT for the Church compared to Israel, but SALVATION is the SAME for both.

      The Church has NOT replaced Israel at all. If the Church has replaced Israel, then GOD has become a liar because His promises were made TO Abraham AND Isaac, AND Jacob AND the Patriarchs as they relate to ISRAEL. There is a good deal more to it than that, but suffice it to say that the ONLY way a person can come away from Scripture believing that the Church has replaced Israel has EVERYTHING to do with the way they INTERPRET Scripture. Wohlberg and others ALLEGORIZE Scripture where it should NOT be allegorized.

      Beth, I would really like to send you my books – free of charge. We could go back and forth like this forever, but if you take the time to read my books, you will get an infinitely better understanding of what I believe. Go to Amazon.com and do a search for me – fred deruvo. There are 14 books available and I’ll send you one of every one available if you like. Again, NO CHARGE. I would really like you to KNOW what I believe, not ASSUME you know what I believe.

      One more thing…I am NOT condemning Steve Wohlberg. He has written books and made public comments and like anyone (myself included), his words are open to critique, just as Paul’s were in the book of Acts, by the Bereans. It did not bother Paul one bit!

      In my view, Steve Wohlberg is teaching absolute, unmitigated error, which denigrates God’s sovereignty. That view that he holds, is wrong and needs to be exposed. If I teach something that is wrong, then I need to be exposed as well. God help us because we claim to be teachers of God’s Word, and because of that we had BETTER know what God MEANS in His Word. I do not believe Wohlberg understands what God means in His Word as it relates to Israel.

      One final thought for now. Please know I am NOT “yelling” at you in my post. I am being emphatic and that is all.

      If you are interested in me sending you my books, you can email me at modres@hotmail.com

  • 18. amc  |  February 14, 2010 at 9:08 PM

    Correction. That should be – only a small number of Evangelical churches believe that the church has NOT replaced Israel.

    • 19. modres  |  February 14, 2010 at 11:08 PM

      It does not matter HOW many or how FEW churches believe that the Church has not replaced Israel. The only thing that matters is what the Bible states.

  • 20. amc  |  February 14, 2010 at 9:03 PM

    Beth, you missed the point – Wohlberg’s Jewish heritage has been proposed by Sojourner, Batchelor and others as some sort of credibility leverage for calling the church (SDA?) the New Israel. The counter point is that there are scholastic Jews (I didn’t make an exhaustive list) who can use exactly the same strategy to prop their views.

    As for your remark about Gaebelein’s association with Scofield, the very same can be said for Steve’s agenda and SDA’s reliance on the teachings of Ellen G White.

    You say Steve is a brave man, presumably for writing his book, Exploding the Israel Deception. I don’t follow your logic. The vast majority of the Christian churches are Supersessionist (Replacement Theology) and many even lobby their Governments to boycott Israeli goods. Some Universities even go as far as boycotting Israeli Academics and most nations hate Israel. In other words, far from being brave, Steve has joined the biggest club. It is a very small number of Evangelical Christians who believe that God hasn’t cast Israel out forever and that the church has replaced her.

    As far as Masonic symbols go, you should understand that Masonry has a history of borrowing symbols from a variety of religions so that they end up being identified with that organization. The rainbow symbol and the Gay Agenda or Greenpeace are perfect examples of this phenomenon.

    • 21. modres  |  February 14, 2010 at 11:54 PM

      Well said, amc. Thank you.

  • 22. modres  |  February 14, 2010 at 5:30 PM

    You really make very little sense, unfortunately. My point about Steve Wohlberg being Jewish stands. Just BECAUSE he is Jewish does not mean he understands the Bible any better. In fact, it seems clear from his rhetoric that he understands it very little, with respect to prophecy.

    You bring to the fore the very things that many Anti-Zionists bring to the fore. Folks like yourself seem to delight in pointing out all the wrong that the Jews have done, yet I never hear any of you quote Paul when he states that we are obligated to the the Jews because salvation came form them.

    Regarding the current state of Israel, it has NOTHING to do with God’s promises. The current Jews are in rebellion to God. Those who are actual believers are part of the Remnant of today and they are part of the Church. Whether they use pentagrams, or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with all of God’s unconditional promises related to Israel.

    What you and others like you consistently fail to realize is that while you are constantly looking AT Israel, pointing out one fault after another, it is because of that failure that you are completely UNABLE to see that God will have His day with Israel.

    You fail to understand the following:
    1) Israel’s land is God’s LAND
    2) Jerusalem is the center of the world as far as God is concerned
    3) There is ONE and ONLY one reason that God will “save all Israel” AS Israel (not some convoluted way of thinking that Paul is talking about Jews in the Church)

    If you will take the time to read Ezekiel alone, you will find that God says numerous times and in numerous ways throughout that book that He will save Israel for ONE PURPOSE and it has NOTHING to do with Israel.

    That purpose is that He will redeem Israel FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME. He will do it for no other purpose. Israel has and continues to drag His precious Name through the mud. His Name has become an epithet because of Israel. The nations curse God because of Israel. Yet this will NOT always be the case. God Himself will rectify the problem and this will FORCE the nations to recognize Him as God.

    What you and many other Anti-Zionists propagate is nothing more than what Martin Luther believed and taught when he said that all synagogues should be burned. Nazi Germany, under the leadership of Adolph Hitler, read Luther’s book almost daily and patterned what HE did after what LUTHER believed. In fact, Hitler believed firmly that he was MANDATED by God to destroy the Jews.

    Let me say this and then we can end it. Israel is no worse a Sodom and Gomorrah than the UNITED STATES, or Sweden, or France or anywhere else! This is what FALLEN, corrupt people DO when they continue to reject and rebel against God continually.

    Do you realize that if not for the Jews, there would be NO salvation? Why? Because Jesus was and remains JEWISH by physical descent. He called Jews “brothers” or “brethren” many times throughout the NT (and so did Paul). He weeped when He knew that Jersualem was going to kill Him. He did NOT react with hatred. He did NOT do what YOU are doing. He only castigated the Jewish religious leaders, but not the ordinary Jewish individual.

    Today, it is COMMON for Anti-Zionists to blame the Jews for Christ’s death, yet we ALL had a hand in it! Thank GOD Jesus died! Without His death, NO ONE would have salvation. The Jews brought the charges to Pilate (a Gentile), who could have released Jesus, but was too afraid to do so. If anyone gets the blame, it should be Pilate. What about the Roman soldiers? They physically killed our Lord. They bear responsibility as well.

    You are extremely close to exhibiting a severe case of anti-Semitism, and you need to stop and ask yourself WHY you harbor such resentment against ONE group of people? I know actual JEWS who have admitted that they hate JEWS. There is something tragically wrong with that, because it comes only from the pit of hell.

    Let me ask you – what would YOU have done during Hitler’s reign? Would you have taken the chance on losing your own life as Corrie Ten Boom and others did, by hiding Jews, or would you turn your back as MOST people did, while Jews were slaughtered?

    Regarding Zionism, Scofield and all the rest, I have studied these things for a number of years. All you’re doing is parroting what others have said. You have more of an “agenda” that Scofield, Darby, Gabelein and others. Maybe you would be interested in my book “Anti-Zionism’s Vitriolic Allegations”? If so, I’d be more than happy to send you a copy free of charge. Just provide me with your address.

    The reality of many of these websites you point to is that they are created by people who HATE – LOATHE the Jews. Much of what they preach is abject hatred. They preach the same lies that you believe and espouse. LONG before there were Palestinians, the Jews were in Israel. Yet, you have NO clue about the origin of the “Palestinians,” do you? Are you aware that there is NO SUCH people group as the Palestinians? They have NO original language, and NO unique culture at all. They are an INVENTION of Yassar Arafat, who took advantage of the situation in the Middle East to get the world to believe that “Palestinians” exist as a separate people group. Long before Arafat came onto the scene however, people referred to ANYONE who lived in Palestine as Palestinians and at that time, the majority of people who lived there were JEWISH. The people who are called “Palestinians” today are ARAB, even though Jews STILL live in Palestine. The entirety of Israel is surrounded with Arabs and Muslims, yet they are not happy with that. No, they need to have Israel’s land as well, and you play right along with that believing that the “Palestinians” are the downtrodden people. It’s interesting that the media NEVER shows images of what these “Palestinians” do, by training their children from nearly babyhood to HATE Jews. By the time they are school aged, they are well on their way to fully hating a people that never did anything to them.

    You say the Jews in Israel are godless? I did not hear you mention Hamas, or Hezbullah, or any other Arab/Muslim group, or people like Ahmadinejad. To you, I would imagine they are merely DEFENDING themselves against the Israeli onslaught. Are you aware that BEFORE Israel went into Gaza to take out the rocket launchers that were launching rockets into Israel for YEARS, they flew over the area and dropped pamphlets warning people what they were going to do, so that innocent lives would not be taken? You did not hear about that in the media, did you? Are you also aware that Hamas (in Gaza), put their headquarters right in the heart of the middle of large cities in Gaza so that IF Israel attacked, they would likely take out civilians? Because Israel chose to drop tons of pamphlets, they gave up the element of surprise.

    Are you also aware that Hamas uses the practise of taking innocent people and uses them as shields so that Israeli snipers will not shoot? For over 20 years, Israel put up with Syria (Golan Heights) lobbing rocket after rocket after rocket into Israel. They finally did something about it and went in and wiped out the rocket launchers. What you heard about in the media was what Israel did, not what led UP to the event.

    Please, continue to believe the Anti-Zionist garbage, believing that the Jews are the worst people who ever lived. Believe all the Anti-Zionists who rage against people like me because apparently, I do not love the “Palestinian.” Continue to believe that uneducated individuals like Steve Wohlberg brings truth, when in reality, nothing he says when he gets into areas of prophecy are legitimate, since he allegorizes everything to suit him. His theology is like swiss cheese, it is full of so many holes. The only thing that is brave about him is that he actually believes what he says, in spite of the fact that it can be shown in too many ways that he has no leg to stand on, Scripturally. Moreover, if he IS wrong about Israel and the Jews, then it is clear that he is opposing God, a very dangerous position to be in.

    What, the only thing you could come up with against Fruchtenbaum is the “occult” symbol? Blame David for that, oh but wait! According to 1 Samuel, David was a man after God’s own heart! God must have missed a few things. (Pardon my sarcasm, please.)

    These Anti-Zionists need to stop for a minute and realize that ANYTHING God does WITH or FOR Israel is ultimately because of the promises He made centuries ago to Abraham. He WILL fulfill those promises for the sake of His holy Name and for no other reason.

    The Jews are not “special,” nor are they BETTER than Gentiles. They are a nation (the ONLY nation) that God actually created and their purpose for being created was to be a light to the world. They have continually failed to do that, but God will rectify that problem. He did not create the Church as a “Plan B” because Israel failed Him. He will yet work through Israel in order that His promises will come to fruition because to NOT do so means He is a liar, and God most definitely is NOT a liar.

    The Jews are also not WORSE than Gentiles either. In fact, they need salvation as much as you and I do. When was the last time you witnessed to a Jew? You ought to try it sometime, instead of simply believing all the vitriolic rhetoric tossed around by people who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about; people like Steve Wohlberg who is a member of a sect that demands works in order to MAINTAIN salvation.

    If you are going to call yourself a Christian, then you are OBLIGATED to understand the situation as it IS, as taught in Scripture, and react to it as Christ reacts to it. If you are unwilling or unable to do that, then you have no business calling yourself a Christian, because it appears as though you hate the very people from which salvation came to the rest of the world.

    Thank you for your comments, Beth. I pray that you will find the truth one day about God’s SOVEREIGNTY and the fact that it has nothing to do with people’s gender or ethnicity.

  • 23. Beth  |  February 14, 2010 at 4:03 PM

    In reading this blog and these posts I am disappointed at some of the comments against Steve Wohlberg. Your Italian/Italian Cooking analogy to Steve Wohlberg’s being a Jew/authority on Israel left a big thud here as most know that any Jew who exposes the Israel deception runs the risk of being called a self-hating Jew for their honesty on this nation that is anything but Godly. More Christians lived in Palestine before the Zionists went in and formed Israel than they do today. The worst thing to have ever happened to the King James Bible was for C.I. Scofield and his Zionist backers (Samuel Untermyer for one) to be able to publish it through Oxford University Press with Pro Zionist footnotes. In relation to Fruchtenbaum, I admire any Jew who embraces Yeshua as his Messiah, but he really needs to get rid of that Occult Hexagram from his web site which is found not only on the Israeli flag, but is also most likely the symbol Stephen warned the Jews about and was stoned for, see Acts 7:43. I also looked up Gaebelein and he was an assistant to Scofield so I guess we know what his agenda really was in relation to the theft of Palestine by the Zionists. If Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, one would have to question the Masonic Symbols adorning the new Israeli Supreme Court, if you don’t believe me just look it up. Steve Wohlberg is a brave man and true disciple of our Lord. In the meantime, Israel today is a regular Sodom & Gomorrah. May I suggest you visit the “Jews Against Zionism” web site to find out what the modern state of Israel is really all about. God Bless You in your search for truth and the “Spiritual Israel” of God. Beth

  • 24. modres  |  January 27, 2010 at 4:21 PM

    Hey AMC,

    I agree – Wohlberg is completely out of his element. I noted the same thing you did too…he never really takes on Ryrie or Walvoord.

    Most anti-Dispensationalists stick with Hagee, Lindsey and a few others, who are not necessarily noted for their scholarship.

    I had not heard about the 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism. I’ll check it out…when I’m in a REALLY great mood. 🙂

  • 25. amc  |  January 27, 2010 at 1:59 PM

    “Covenant Theologians do this all the time, as I know you’re aware. It almost seems as though they make it up as they go.”

    I read through Wohlberg’s Dispensational Delusions. He walks perilously close to accusing dispies of teaching salvation by works in the OT. I get the feeling he’s way out of his depth and muddying the waters. It’s a pity that he references Wiki rather than engaging Ryrie’s Dispensationalism. I wonder whether he’s even opened the book.

    Speaking of CT, I don’t know if you’re aware of it but Paul Henebury has been undergoing the exercise of answering the “95 Theses Against Dispensationalism” over at http://drreluctant.wordpress.com/

  • 26. modres  |  January 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM

    That’s what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure. You would probably enjoy them to a point. The Exploding the Israel Deception is actually all incorporated in the End Times Delusion book. You’ll probably find yourself laughing a bit without meaning to due to the conclusions Wohlberg makes. Some of them are just downright embarrassing to read, because he is so off in his interpretation, in my opinion.

    I agree – neither of Fruchtenbaum’s books are light reading. You really have to set time aside to dedicate yourself to plowing through them. What is nice though is that there are sections to the books which allow you to go through various sections on their own.

    Regarding Wohlberg, like anyone who allegorizes Scripture, the details really do not matter. His reasoning that it is perfectly acceptable grammatically to see all three uses of the pronoun “he” in Daniel 9:27 as referring to Jesus is 100% wrong. The use of “he” always refers back to the most recent antecedent. THAT is the grammatical rule there, not his version.

    I have talked to Covenant Theologians who state matter of factly that prophesy should always be taken allegorically. Well, if you start off like that, the details really do NOT matter at all.

    Wohlberg has a knack for skimming way past aspects of Scripture that shed light on the subject. He seemingly does not need those areas.

    What is telling to me though is if you go to his website and begin reading the articles, there is one that indicates that it was written to answer all the confusion that resulted from a number of his previous articles. The point being of course, is that his “fans” seem easily confused and unable to follow his reasoning, necessitating him to create another article to explain what he meant previously.

    As far as I’m concerned, the follow-up article did not solve the problem. While it explained his position in more detail, it does not adequately provide reasons for how he got to that position, in light of Scripture.

    Not to belabor this, but I’ve watched a number of videos put out by Amazing Facts (one of the Seventh-day Adventists organizations, this one headed by Doug Batchelor). In it, Batchelor constantly makes comments like, “Remember people, we said that whenever you see this in Scripture, it means this…” to his listening audience in the auditorium. He offers no explanation for HOW he comes to his conclusions. He just comes to conclusions.

    Covenant Theologians do this all the time, as I know you’re aware. It almost seems as though they make it up as they go.

    Fruchtenbaum and others point out that any symbolism IN Scripture, is normally explained IN Scripture; either in that portion of the text, or somewhere else in the Bible.

    There is NO guesswork needed at all.

  • 27. amc  |  January 26, 2010 at 5:10 PM

    Sorry, I did mean Wohlberg’s book.

    I own both “Israelology” and “Footsteps”. They’re not exactly “light” reading and I’m making a guess here that Wohlberg superficially skims over a broad area given the book is a whole 128 pages! Compare that to Israelology at over 1000 pages and one wonders how Wohlberg is able to adequately address all the relevant issues and scriptures. He does have his fans though.

  • 28. modres  |  January 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM

    You nailed it, AMC. It is very popular to attack – verbally and physically – Israel.

    I don’t think Wohlberg can hold a candle to Fruchtenbaum, in the way of biblical exegesis.

    Are you meaning to read/review Wohlberg’s book, or Fruchtenbaum’s Israelology? If the latter, I have it and its very indepth, just like his Footsteps of the Messiah, both well worth owning.

  • 29. amc  |  January 26, 2010 at 1:52 PM

    Another great post, Modres!

    I went to Amazon to check the reviews. Someone called Sojourner said: “It takes guts to write a book like this. Seldom does truth don the clothes of popularity…”

    Popularity? Actually, the opposite is true; it is more popular to bag Israel, dispensationalism and anything remotely smacking of Zionism.

    And this gem: “Since Wohlberg is himself a physical Jew, he writes with a clarity and understanding which us Gentiles lack.”

    If that’s true then what shall we say about a Fruchtenbaum and a Gaebelein? I wonder how Wohlberg would handle Fruchtenbaum’s Israelology? I almost want to read the book just to review it.


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