Study – Grow – Know

30 Comments

• 1. Starsque  |  August 8, 2010 at 7:47 PM

  I didn’t mean to seem uncharitable by asking you not to pray for me Modres. I definitely didn’t mean to start an argument between brothers in Christ. This is exactly what I was trying to convey. There’s too much “much” in churches these days. Whatever happened to K.I.S.S.? You know, keep it simple stupid? Wait, I’m not saying that anyone is stupid. Guess I’m just trying to say that there’s too much doctrine and not enough God. What Glasseyedave recommends is exactly what I’ve been doing. I’ve been getting kids to just read scripture, ALL OF IT, and getting them in the habit of asking the Holy Spirit for clarification. The ones that get it, really get it, are the ones who haven’t gone to church ever. The ones who get the most confused are the ones who can’t fit what they’ve read into what they are learning in church. Two friends I know don’t think they can hang out anymore because of this once saved always saved doctrinal difference. The stupid part is that they really like each other but are getting hurt by what Paul told us not to do, sweat the small stuff. I think that’s why I’m sensitive about it. I’m not frustrated as much as I am angry. In other places in the world, Christians are dying for their choice to believe. The church (collectively) in America is dying because we’re all wrapped up in doctrinal differences. We aren’t listening anymore, not to the people who need God or to God Himself. We wanna label each other and prove our points, what we “interpret” scripture to be or worse, what we just flat want it to be so we can do what we want to do and claim God’s stamp of approval is on it. I don’t see anything wrong with you Modres. You’ve been nice to me. But I don’t see anything wrong with Glassdave either and I have read some of his other stuff. It’s good too. But you don’t agree on this once saved point and maybe some other points so you, Modres are not going to allow him to post here anymore. Pain. It just hurts and I can’t see God saying that’s okay. I can’t see a witness and if I can’t, how can anyone who needs God and Jesus see that it’s worth the hassel? For the record, you both helped me here ’cause some of what you said (not the first time Modres but the second time when you forgot about making your point and showed you cared about my frustration) really made me think and gave me some good insight and you Glasseyedave when you empathized. Isn’t that God wants from us? This doctrine stuff and fighting about it is bogus!

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  • 2. modres  |  August 8, 2010 at 10:13 PM

    I have no idea why you began posting here at all, Starsque. Whatever your need was, I’m not sure your posting here has solved anything for you.

    It is EXTREMELY difficult to appreciate where you are coming from because I do not know you at all. It is also IMPOSSIBLE to get an adequate picture of who you are from only a few posts.

    When I hear about people who simply READ the Scripture, a red flag goes off in my head and it has nothing to do with doctrine. It has to do with interpretation. How is it possible for you, me or anyone else to simply READ Scripture and determine the correct interpretation? You’re saying (and Dave seems to be saying) that you read it, you pray about it, and then the Holy Spirit tells you what it means, right? That’s all you both need. You don’t need anyone else because you have your Bible and you have the Holy Spirit, right? So you both personally know all about the culture of Jesus’ day? You understand how the ancients lived in the Old Testament and why they lived that way?

    Okay, then what do the following mean:
    • nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom
    • does the word “virgin” in Scripture always refer to a woman?
    • eye of a needle – what does it mean?
    • let me bury my father

    The above are but a few idioms, or figures of speech. How does one go about learning what they mean? You could sit there and pray to the Holy Spirit until the answer comes through, or you could take the time to study New Testament history, meaning what life was like during Jesus’ day. All cultures have idioms and figures of speech. I spent ten years teaching in the public school systems, grades 4 – 6. During that time, I taught many students from Mexico and Laos. As they learned English, they would have an incredibly difficult time wrapping their brains around many of our idioms or figures of speech, usually because they have nothing to compare it with.

    Both you and Dave – you come across as if you both KNOW what Scripture means and you’re just so upset that others don’t “get it.” You say you are angry. You say you’re angry because people in other parts of the world are dying for their faith, and here in America, people argue about doctrine. First of all, that’s a tad self-aggrandizing, but beyond that, this will happen to ANY group of Christians where they are NOT dealing with, or facing the possibility of death every day. However, this does NOT mean that discussing doctrine is not important.

    With respect to “once saved, always saved,” I don’t care if you believe one side or the other. It’s up to you and it seems as though you have made your decision, so you want to vent, get rid of the pent up anger because Christians act like fallen human beings…duh. Your two friends cannot hang out together because they cannot agree on the once saved, always saved position? Immaturity on BOTH of their parts, OR the issue of Soteriology is SO important to them that they realize they cannot go out evangelizing because they disagree over a believer’s assurance of salvation. I do NOT agree one iota with Covenant or Reformed Theology, or Preterism when it comes to Eschatology, BUT I have brothers in the Lord who are Covenant or Reformed. We simply don’t discuss it, it’s THAT simple! It is one thing not to discuss Eschatology. It is another to discuss or disagree over the nature of salvation. It cannot be minimized.

    The reason I don’t want Dave posting here anymore is solely because he and I have gone round and round with once saved, always saved, and I just do not wish to discuss it anymore. He reads your posts, then decides to post. Do you notice how he implied that the oneness is on ME because he is sharing the “truth” with me and I have “rejected it.” This is the problem that pushes Christians away from one another and it has EVERYTHING to do with arrogance, and an unwillingness to believe that there may be a CHANCE that they might be wrong.

    The other thing I have noticed is that folks like yourself seem to have this ANGST for the Church, as if Christ does not. Does your anger do you or anyone else any good? Could it possibly a sign that you yourself are harboring pride? How is it YOU (or Dave or anyone else, including me) can come to a point of believing what you say about Christ’s Church? Are you talking about the VISIBLE Church, or solely the INVISIBLE Church? If you are talking about the INVISIBLE Church, you should really consider watching WHAT you say, and HOW you say it, because you are talking about Christ’s BRIDE.

    This – often – is where your beliefs that deal with salvation lead you to. You come to a point of believing that God is NOT sovereign, because people can evidently LEAVE Christianity after becoming one. You think that Christ stands there wringing His hands as He watches another soul walk away from Him, and He can obviously do NOTHING about it. This is why you become angry, because you think that people can walk IN and OUT of Christianity as a person would walk through a door. This is what you think of Jesus Christ? This is Who you WORSHIP? You don’t even give Him enough credit for being able to TEND His flock! To you – and the fact that you believe salvation can be shrugged off as easily as it can be put on – Jesus is really a flunky. He obviously cannot handle the sheep in His charge. As He watches them walk away, He stands there, not knowing what to do, or unable to do anything.

    This is why you are angry. It is because you believe YOU have to do something to ensure that people REMAIN saved, when in point of fact, that is NOT your job. So this anger that you have stems from what I consider to be a faulty understanding of salvation. Do you honestly believe that people can become Christians by their own CHOICE? No one comes to Him, unless He calls them.

    I’m not sure if your anger is actually anger, or simply self-righteousness. You can decide that.

    You say we should keep it simple stupid. Really? Then you have not read Scripture all the way through, because there are some extremely difficult things to understand in Scripture, and personally, I do not believe we will have any kind of real handle on them until eternity.

    On one hand, people CAN get carried away by doctrine. But why have you placed yourself in the position of trying to be the arbiter of how much doctrine is too much?

    “The ones that get it, really get it, are the ones who haven’t gone to church ever.”

    Great, that works for the simple stuff. When it gets beyond the “milk” stage, they need to be taught and even Paul recognized that. If we listen to what you are advocating, then no one should have listened to anyone but Jesus and there are people who only accept Jesus’ words as Scripture, nothing else (red letterists). I mean think about it. Paul claims He was taught directly by Jesus Christ, right? I believe him. Does that mean that I will be taught in everything directly by the Holy Spirit? You would have to say “yes” and I say “not necessarily.” Paul was born a Jew, was raised a Jew, was taught the law since before he could walk. He knew HEBREW. I do not, so I have to rely on those who DO know Hebrew. He then went to the finest schools in Israel and he was taught by MEN. After he became saved, do you think Jesus ERADICATED everything that he was previously taught? Absolutely not. Jesus USED what Paul had been taught to connect the dots. If all we need is the Holy Spirit, then why do I need an English version of the Bible? Why can’t I have a Hebrew/Greek edition? Surely, the Holy Spirit will enlighten me, won’t He? He would not expect me to have to rely on MEN who have translated Scripture, would He?

    I personally believe that this is why God will seal 144,000 JEWS during the Tribulation period. Why? Because orthodox Jews KNOW the Old Testament and all that needs to happen for them is to shift their gaze so that they gain a far greater understanding of what they already KNOW, with this new understanding of who Jesus is. Once they SEE it, they understand WHO Isaiah 53 is about, and all the other prophetic verses in Scripture.

    I still care about your frustration, even though you will probably accuse me of simply trying to “make my point” in this response to you. I also believe that at least some of your frustration is brought on by yourself. You are not giving God enough credit, and you are giving yourself too much.

    “The ones who get the most confused are the ones who can’t fit what they’ve read into what they are learning in church.”

    Really? I guess that would depend upon which church they come from and how much study they put into the Bible. I have found that when God opens a person’s eyes, they GET IT, whether they are Catholic, Baptist, or something else entirely. In fact, I have found that those who are UNCHURCHED have a very difficult time understanding some of the more complex doctrines beyond salvation. Without them, there is little to no growth. Fortunately for them (because of the way God designed it), salvation is easy to understand for EVERYONE if God opens their eyes. The other doctrines beyond it require tremendous study.

    If I had known that you really did not want me to respond to you, except to commiserate with your frustration, you should have told me that at the beginning. When someone leaves a comment here, I feel an obligation to try to respond to them. You SEEMED to be asking questions, but obviously I misunderstood you because you really did not want my opinion at all. Neither does Dave. He simply likes to point out that I am “wrong” about once saved, always saved. So in effect, he is doing the same thing that you say others are doing with respect to doctrine.

    The problem with the entire issue of “once saved, always saved,” is that it goes to the heart of who Jesus Christ is. For anyone to say that they can be authentic Christian one day, and then reject it the next is something I do not find in Scripture. I read the same words you and Dave do, but I see them differently. You both would say that it is because I have learned from men. However, you both have learned from the Holy Spirit. Do you see how arrogant that is?

    Give more credit to Jesus Christ. If He is powerful enough to create the universe and all that it entails, He is most certainly powerful enough to keep people from falling away. I am really sorry that neither you nor Dave believe that to be the case. The difference is really the heart of salvation.

    I’m done here. There’s really nothing more that we can say except to reiterate the same thing with different verbiage. Both you and Dave seem clear in your understanding that “once saved, always saved” is bogus. Great. Then spend the remainder of your lives praying for people like me, who at any moment, due to my complacency, I could become a non-Christian…

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• 3. Starsque  |  August 7, 2010 at 10:20 AM

  Don’t pray for me mister. I mean thanks and all but let me explain. I’ve been busting my butt on campus to tell students about God, His saving grace and what Jesus did for me and them. Wanna know why I can’t get through? Because of all the folks on the internet that they have already witnessed acting like, well, acting like everyone here. I was called a no name of no consequence by a “Pastor Will”, call sign folwm. I made some points on his blog about Josephus. I told him I didn’t understand why any Christian who used Josephus’ historical account to prove or disprove Christian doctrines was wrong. I told him Josephus was two-faced and an anti-Christ. I told him that we should be more loyal to Jesus. My Christian friends understood what I was saying. This folwm guy got mad and lied about me and then wouldn’t post anymore of my comments and deleted the ones he claims I called him names in. Christian? And this guy’s supposed to be a pastor! This is what the kids at school see and, trust me, they spend more time surfing than you could possibly imagine. This is what we experience in churches too and almost, without fail, they’re Baptist, wholehearted pushers of the same doctrine you’re pushing here. There’s other denominations doing it too but mostly it’s folks who believe that once saved is always saved. It’s the same doctrine “Pastor” Will is pushing over on his blog. It’s bogus! Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, it hurts people and I don’t see that God would approve of anything that hurts people. All the kids I’m trying to reach see is hypocrisy, liars and Pharisees. What they need they can’t get and I don’t think it’s because of Satan. I think it’s because of people who refuse to see that it’s them. People who can’t put their own agendas aside and do what God asked of them in the first place. I’m not picking on you here dude but, you tell me what the answer is ’cause I posted something not too terrible on folwm’s board and something over here and all I got back was several paragraphs of reiteration from both you gents. I gotta admit, you were a lot nicer than folwm but I already know that I’m not a no name of no consequence ’cause Jesus thought I was important enough to die for. Thing is, Jesus thought that about all of us and when you think about it that way, does it matter what our “position” is? Folks always want to label people: “You’re an Arminian”, “You’re a Calvinist”, “You’re a this or that!” Who cares? What I am is a child of God who believes that Jesus died for me. I appreciate the offer of your book dude, really I do but I’ve got the only book I need. I guess I was just trying to get folks to see that’s all they need too. I don’t think God needs us to explain Him, just hear Him and do our best to obey Him in love and I’m not talking about the “God is love, New Testament” groupies. The kids in school here think they’re so far off it hurts! The ones who really get it are the ones who are reading both sides of the book and taking it wholly. Guess that’s it! Why does it have to be so hard?

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  • 4. modres  |  August 7, 2010 at 2:38 PM

    Don’t pray for you? Okay.

    Look. Why are you even focused on “once saved, always saved”? Secondly, why does it seem like you are not even considering God’s sovereignty in all of this? “I’m busting my butt on campus…” I can convince NO ONE of their need for salvation. I can TELL them about their need, but I cannot convince them of it. I cannot open anyone’s eyes to the truth, only God can do that.

    It also sounds a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder because of this “pastor will” guy.

    I suppose that people like to label people so that they know what the person actually believes. In today’s world, many people say they are Christians, but how many of them are AUTHENTIC Christians? Moreover, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and others use the exact same terminology that authentic Christians use, so it is helpful to know what they really MEAN by their verbiage.

    I thought I had answered your question, but you are now saying all I did was reiterate something back to you. Not sure what you mean there, sorry. I try my best to respond as clearly as possible, but some things do get lost through the use of the electronic mail/forum system.

    You almost sound hostile, frankly. You act as if you alone are out there on the line, preaching the truth and it’s all up to you. I may be misunderstanding your position, but that’s the way it appears to me.

    I also think calling Josephus an “antichrist” is a bit much. He was lost for certain, and he was politically motivated, but from my own study, I have not gotten the impression that he was trying to get people to worship him. You could be using the term in its broadest sense though, meaning someone simply opposed to Christ, or anti-Christ.

    You also seem to be generalizing about Baptists. Yes, many Baptists are conservative in their doctrine, and that normally includes a “once saved, always saved,” position. Because you disagree with “once saved, always saved,” it does not mean that it is a wrong doctrine. It COULD be wrong, but I don’t think it is wrong.

    I’m really not sure what to say to you, frankly. You sound angry, you sound upset, and it appears as though you have a bit of a problem letting things go. What about God’s sovereignty here? Is God in charge of your life, or what? If He is, then what “pastor will” did to you was allowed by God, maybe even directed by Him. Why? I went through a very serious situation in my church a number of months ago. Several individuals accused me of things that were completely untrue. I was flabbergasted. The temerity of these individuals? Who did they think they were? I could spend my time focusing on that situation, or I could give it to God (which I have done, and continue to do through His strength) because I found out that God needed to sand off a few of my rough edges. Even though the things I was accused of were not true (and that was proven easily enough), the reality is that God always allows these situations so that WE can become more like Him.

    I would like to think that I am a bit more like Jesus because of the situation that occurred. I would like to think that I have less pride today than I did then. The fact that I am not harboring any type of grudge and I can refer to these three men as brothers tells me that He was able to work in and hopefully, through me.

    I really don’t know what you are hoping to hear from me. Maybe nothing. Maybe you just want to vent. You obviously don’t need prayer, right? It seems to me you might possibly think you have it all together (or mostly together) and so you are very frustrated with others who claim to be Christians who do not have it together.

    If anything, you have some idea how Jesus felt when a man who spent three and a half years with Him betrayed Him with a kiss. Jesus loved Judas as He loved the others. Jesus likely forgave Judas repeatedly and continued to include him as one of the original twelve apostles. Yet, Judas betrayed Christ. Wow, can you imagine that? What you and I went through was NOTHING compared to that.

    Anyway, I’m sorry you’re frustrated.

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    • 5. glasseyedave  |  August 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM

      Modres,

      If I may, I would like to take a stab at what starsque’ frustration is. We see things in scripture what we believe and hope in. We get all excited about what we read in scriptures and then look up from the pages and realize, oh that’s how we do it.

      A person who really studies and believes what he reads in scripture will at some point get frustrated with the establishment. I know I feel as if we have a lousy spiritual inheritance from those who were before us. Sorry but what has been passed down looks dead and conflicted and nobody in the church cares to know differently.

      I know this will make no sense to you. I wish we could talk in person and as friends to discus how churchianity is distasteful. But it is. If I could push one message to the youth, especially church youth, it would be this:

      Forsake the God of your fathers and get back to the God of scripture.

      You may think this is directed only at your doctrine but it is not. What we see in modern day Christianity is not what we see in scripture. We are knuckled under to accept doctrine we feel violates what we read. Then shunned or ridiculed if we express what we read.

      So yes there will be emotions. I know I have felt his passion.

      You mentioned you did a little soul searching. Maybe God is being kind by letting you extend this search but for a more casual reason. You know as well as I Christianity is loosing ground, even with our own youth.

      There is a song from a hard Christian band and it is singing about those who are lost. In this song the singer screams over and over again, “They need something real.” This to is my passion and I feel it with the intensity of the song. Maybe starsque does too.

      glasseyedave

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    • 6. modres  |  August 8, 2010 at 5:08 PM

      “A person who really studies and believes what he reads in scripture will at some point get frustrated with the establishment. I know I feel as if we have a lousy spiritual inheritance from those who were before us. Sorry but what has been passed down looks dead and conflicted and nobody in the church cares to know differently.”

      Speak for yourself, Dave. What I and many of my brothers and sisters in the Lord have is by no means dead and conflicted, nor are they indifferent.

      “What we see in modern day Christianity is not what we see in scripture. We are knuckled under to accept doctrine we feel violates what we read. Then shunned or ridiculed if we express what we read.”

      The problem though is that there IS a Church today that is invisible. It is His Bride and He has the ability to keep His Bride from stumbling and He has the ability to present that Bride to Himself as pure and undefiled. There is NOTHING wrong with doctrine. What is wrong is when there is no doctrine, or the wrong doctrine.

      Is Jesus Christ God incarnate? That’s the doctrine of Christology
      Is Jesus Christ the only way of salvation? That’s the doctrine of Soteriology
      Did Jesus share prophetic discourse of the future? That’s the docrtrine of Eschatology

      There is NOTHING wrong with doctrine. Paul fought against wrong doctrine all the time.

      Dave, this will be the last time I allow your posts here, all right? There is no point to it because of how we disagree and why.

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  • 7. glasseyedave  |  August 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM

    Starsque,

    I am an older fart, but I recognize your passion. I understand your frustration at being blocked off of blogs and others seeing it as you not being able to answer the question. I have been told I have no doctrine, I love ignorance, I am uneducated, cult leader etc. So I get it.

    The tee shirt I would love to make and wear around is “Oh God please not another ministry, how about a movement this time.”

    I mean what I said about the church being Samericans and the division being the Compete Word of God.

    I have been saying without any effect that God’s word is not divided and I tried to show Modres and he rejected it. I tried showing him from scripture how this dividing wall built around once saved always saved is null and void in scripture. If we simply listen to what Paul says about our gospel.

    Maybe for a change of pace, come to my sight, unless you swear, I will not block you.

    You have it right. Men love the doctrine of other men.

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    • 8. modres  |  August 8, 2010 at 5:02 PM

      Here you also prove your belief that God is not sovereign. My friend, God has EVERYTHING under control. His Church is firmly established. There are tares NEAR the wheat and there are many professing Christians walking around today believing fully that they are in fact authentic Christians. That belief on their part does not make it so.

      “I have been told I have no doctrine, I love ignorance, I am uneducated, cult leader etc. So I get it.”

      So you turn around to castigate anyone with formal education where the Bible is concerned? If people have told you that you lack doctrine, maybe that’s something you should consider. If people have accused you of being a cult leader, is it due to the fact that you seem to want to avoid churches, when the Bible states that we should not give up meeting together?

      Tell me ONE doctrine you have learned that you have not first learned from some other human being. Have you ever gone to church? Have you ever been a member of a church or a Bible study group? If you have, then you have learned through osmosis alone at least some of the things you believe now. Regardless of whether or not you may state that you have sufficiently searched Scripture to know that they are REAL doctrines or not is not even the point.

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• 9. Starsque  |  August 6, 2010 at 10:37 PM

  Okay, I’m biting on this. So, explain to me the point of Satan trying to tempt me if I’m already saved and he can’t have me? Or why Jesus instructed His disciples to be on their guard at all times? Weren’t they saved? I’ve found an awful lot of scripture supporting both sides of this, this, what is this, a debate or just some junk to divide the Body? And if it is some junk to divide the Body, that would mean it’s junk from Satan and what’s the point of dividing if not to conquer? And what’s Satan’s reason for conquering if not to spite God and steal from Him members of the Body ’cause a house divided against itself can’t stand? Who said that? Hmm.. I just gotta know, does it matter who’s got it right? If we spent less time here and more time “out there” wouldn’t God be a whole lot better served? Oh well, what do I know? I’m just a kid, just a no name kid of no consequence!

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  • 10. modres  |  August 6, 2010 at 11:13 PM

    1. Satan tempting you: Why would Satan NOT tempt you. If you are saved, then would he not want to KEEP you from doing God’s will? Of course, he cannot have you, but why wouldn’t he try to make you think he CAN? Jesus was perfect. He was unable to fail/sin. Yet, Satan tried to get Him to sin through temptation too, didn’t he?

    2. Jesus instructed His disciples to be on their guard: Paul did the same thing. We are to avoid falling to temptation. This has nothing to do with our salvation. If we are not on our guard, Satan will cause us to fall. If we fall, we sin. If we sin, we dishonor God and lose ground, but we do NOT lose our salvation – ever. That lie is born in hell. Those who believe it are constantly focused on whether or not they have done something that causes them to lose salvation. Sounds like WORKS to me, not GRACE.

    3. Satan stealing members of His Body: Don’t you think that in order for Satan to actually steal someone from Christ, he would have to be more powerful than Christ? Does not Christ allude to this in the gospels? It cannot happen, because IF it could happen, that means that Satan is STRONGER than God. He is not. However, Satan would love for people to think he is stronger than God. Satan would definitely like to conquer ALL Christians, but not because he thinks he can steal us away from God. He does it exactly as you have stated – to SPITE God and to make Christians doubt.

    4. Does it matter who has it right? I think so. Those who live under the impression that they CAN lose their salvation are constantly concerned about themselves. In other words, they are always wondering “Did I just sin?” “Did I just lose my salvation?” “Did I stumble just now?” How can ANYONE live an authentic Christian life if they have to spend the rest of their life constantly asking that question? The focus is inward, instead of outward. However, if I am confident that I am saved, then I am truly free to spend the rest of my life serving God. Sure, I can use my salvation as a license to sin, but if I am truly saved, how long do you think God is going to allow that to continue?

    Unfortunately, this is one of those issues that does tend to divide people in the church and that’s Satan’s doing unfortunately. God allows it to strengthen His own, and to weed out those who are not His. You’re just a “no name kid of no consequences”??? Hardly. You’ve asked some intelligent questions as far as I can tell. You would NOT be asking those questions if God was not working within you to settle the question once and for all. Would you like a copy of my book? I’d be happy to send it to you free of charge – no strings attached. It goes into far greater depth than this blog. If so, send me your address info to fred_deruvo@hotmail.com

    Seriously, I think you’ve asked some very intelligent questions! I’m praying for you!

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  • 11. glasseyedave  |  August 8, 2010 at 4:04 PM

    Starsque,

    Modres and I do not agree theologically and we have gone around. But it is important to study and know. Paul says by the true gospel we are saved IF we hold firmly to the end what he has preached to us.

    (1 Cor 15:1 NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    Modres in his way is defending what he knows, even though I think he is wrong. Modres is giving an answer for the hope he has and you must be able to give an answer for the hope you have and it had better be the gospel of Paul and the others.

    For myself, I say I have no gospel (what I believe isn’t valid) if it can not stand up to those ideas I appose.

    Yes I agree with you the division you see in the house of God is vast. I call it the Compete Word of God. I personally believe that man has not understood what God has done for us, making us Samericans. For the most part we worship what we do not know and we could really care less to know.

    I am happy to see you wrestle. Wrestle hard and wrestle good. Let it count for something. This is the time to seek God in His word. You see some things that don’t jive so ask God to help you gain wisdom.

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    • 12. modres  |  August 8, 2010 at 4:58 PM

      Dave,

      Yes, we do disagree. Your 1 Corinthians 15:1 reference as well as ALL other references where Paul or someone else indicates that people are saved IF they persevere, etc. could easily be taken to mean PROFESSING Christians. In other words, Paul saw people walk away from Christianity. Does that mean they WERE actual Christians? I doubt it. I personally know people who walked away from Christianity, and the more I talk to them (or read their books), the more convinced I am that they were NEVER authentic Christians at all, though they think they were.

      The reality for me is that once I am saved, there is NOTHING that can separate me from God’s love. Nothing. Nothing can take me out of His hand. In order for that to happen, I would have to be stronger than God and my “self-will” does not cut the muster.

      I really could care less about discussing this further with you. The only reason I have allowed your three posts here is because of the response to Starsque. There are MANY times in Scripture where IF is used, and it really means SINCE. The reality for me as I search the Scriptures is that IF God is who He says He is, and has done what He says He has done, then nothing can eradicate the salvation that He has given me. Once saved, I have received a new birth from above. I am seated with Christ in the heavenlies NOW (Eph 2). The Holy Spirit comes within me and SEALS me for WHEN? Until the Day of Redemption. It does not say, He seals me until the Day of Redemption, or until I quit being a Christian.

      You are welcome to your beliefs, but in spite of what you haughtily state “men love the doctrine of men,” I will state without equivocation that at least SOME of the things you have learned have come from others. The idea that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to all believers, but that He should also teach me EVERYTHING directly is the epitome of arrogance. You know Greek? You knew Hebrew? If not, then by that very fact, you are relying on a Bible translation done by OTHERS, with their particular slant.

      This train of thought that denigrates formal biblical education is not only absurd, but egotistical.

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• 13. internet elias  |  July 18, 2010 at 8:09 AM

  Hmmmm. Very interesting…this ‘once saved always saved’ thing. I agree with my ‘now gone to be with his Lord’ dad who said, ‘The shallowness of the teaching related to ‘once saved always saved’ is leading many on a dangerous path.’ A Baptist evangelist…Dad believed strongly in ‘eternal security’ based on the redemptive act of Christ…the receiving of that Gift…and the ‘rebirth’ from death to Life through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. HE believed in ‘living’ his faith. I agree. And I think most would see it this way. But ‘if you love me you will keep my commandments..and they are not grievous. Dad believed..as do I.. that sin has no place in the life of a Christian. We have incredible record and example of how to ‘overcome.’ Christ’s horrible, horrible death for us…which included both body and soul…paid for ‘…sins that are PAST..(Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ).

  When we accept that Gift…we should then yield our bodies as a Temple of God…practicing the fruits of God…which are signs to the authenticity of true followers…

  Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

  Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

  As those at Ephesus, we contemporary Christians have left off the one thing which is Christianity…….Christ…the First Love. Without the presence of the Spirit of God through divine revelation….like Peter..we cannot KNOW the Christ.

  Mt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

  Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

  Once in the presence and fellowship of the Christ..spirit to Spirit…the human heart experience renewal, regeneration, restoration…Love of the God kind. It is in this circumstance that Faith is born. It is in this circumstance that our everyday deeds will be pleasing to God…will be deeds of eternal importance…will be deeds of obedience…will be deeds born out of real Love…and will all be done in the name of Christ.

  Works cannot ‘save’ a man. But after one has recieved the Gift of redemption, salvation from ‘sins that are past’…all his actions…as before…are ‘works’…either for one master..or for the other. Every ‘work’ we do is either for God or for Satan/flesh/self….God or mammon.
  And when those ‘works’ come forth from a pure heart, a righteous heart, the ‘works’ belong to God. They are of Him and from Him…nothing of man. Our ‘works’ , ‘fruits’…bear witness that we are children of God…that we are participating in the Gospel of the Kingdom first preached by Christ.

  Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

  Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

  Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

  Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

  Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

  Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

  Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
  Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

  As my dad grieved concerning the shallowness of the teaching of ‘once saved always saved’…I, too, have had to ask forgiveness from the Father for listening to the doctrine of men…rather that the Word. Eternal security is real. There is a place of no return in God. A place where temptation is not a problem…and sin is not practiced. A place where man’s ‘spirit’ though still in the physical body fellowships with the ‘unseen’ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A place of righteousness. Man is ‘tempted’ after he is DRAWN by HIS OWN LUST and enticed. There is a place where the physical is brought under subjection of the ‘spirit’ man…which is in fellowship with God. After many years of indoctrination through the well intended ‘tradition’ of ‘we are just human and cannot keep from sinning’…God has convicted my heart that this doctrine is the one He referred to in His message to the seven churches of Asia..as the Doctrine of the Nicolaitanes…the thing He ‘hates.’ SIN is NEVER okay. It is ALWAYS A RESPONSE TO LUST OF THE FLESH AND IS CONSEQUENTIAL. SIN IS THE ENEMY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. IT IS NEVER OF GOD. IT ALWAYS GRIEVES GOD.

  IF WE CONTEND THAT THE POWER OF GOD CANNOT KEEP US FROM SIN…THEN WE CONTEND THAT ‘He that is in the world is greater than He that is within us.’

  MANY, MANY Christians, today, are having their hearts touched by God as He strengthens the Body of Christ for the turbulence of the days.

  The author of ‘The Gospel According to the Gospel’…I believe…is one of those who is being called to ‘holiness.’ We are all called to holiness. Without holiness no man will see God. Holiness has no fellowship with sin. Light has no fellowship with darkness. For the first time in my life…I know I will reach that place in God…because finally..I am ‘seeking’. ‘Seek and ye shall find.’

  So sorry. Did not intend such a lengthy ‘expression’ from my heart. But thanks for your patience.

  Carolyn

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  • 14. modres  |  July 18, 2010 at 3:51 PM

    Hi Carolyn,

    Thank you for your comments. The difficulty I have with what you’re saying is that in many ways, it does not take into consideration what God has done. In other words, while I agree that the idea of “once saved, always saved” CAN cause believers to become lackadaisical about walking uprightly before the Lord, that is not in and of itself a reason that disproves the doctrine.

    The other problem is that for those who strive to live holy lives, it seems the oneness is always on them. I have met many of these folks who have never entered into His rest because they believe that while they have His strength within them, it is pretty much their responsibility to accomplish all that God says they should accomplish. They fail to realize that He is Author AND Finisher of our faith. In essence, we COOPERATE with God the Holy Spirit by submitting to Him and His will.

    I can no sooner make myself holy than I can actually save myself. What I can and should do is to submit to Him every step of the way. When I do that, my eyes come off of me, and are glued to Him. The problem with the holiness movement per se, is that it too often leads people to focus on themselves. There are people in my church who constantly harp on being holy, avoiding sin, etc., and yet they are miserable. They are contentious and backbiting and the reason is due to the fact that all they are doing is focusing on how much of a sinner they are, how far they have to go to be holy, and in general, never believe that they are in any way pleasing to God.

    If Paul says that we are already seated with Him in the heavenlies (Eph 2), then it is a DONE deal. The other difficulty I have with your position is that though you readily agree that works cannot save a person, you seem to be saying that works MAINTAINS our salvation. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but yes, while our works give testimony of our salvation, those works are simply the normal outflow of a saved heart. People can easily pretend to be Christian, and from all outward appearances BE saved. However, if they are not truly saved, those works mean nothing.

    Your entire post focuses on sin and its avoidance as opposed to what God does in and through us. Certainly, we have a responsibility, but God has one as well. You also seem to be saying that we can get to a point in this life where we are sin FREE. Sorry, but that does not exist because as long as I have a sin nature, I will sin. God knows this, which is why my sin – past, present, and FUTURE – is cancelled. It has been fully paid for – all of it. This does NOT mean that I have a license to sin. It simply means that EVERY sin I ever commit was paid for by the precious blood of Christ. You quote a good deal of Scripture which again focuses solely on man’s responsibility. You quote 6 passages from the Gospel of John. The same human writer (John) who penned those words also penned these: “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

    “5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us,” (1 John 1:1-10). There is a great deal in that section. John is contrasting light with darkness, sin with no sin. Note that he is talking to people who do not believe they have ever sinned and he is talking to people who as Christians, at times, DO sin.

    There always needs to be a balance. One extreme is when people think that “I’m saved so I can live any way that I want to live!” vs. “I’m saved so I can NEVER sin again!” The battle against our sin nature will continue until we are released from it and that will not occur until the next life. All the things you speak of (sin is the enemy of righteousness, it is never of God, etc) are certainly true. However, we need to appreciate the fact that when you speak of these things and even when John or another writer of the NT speaks of these things, they are referring to a LIFESTYLE of sin, not individual incidences of sin. If I am a thief PRIOR to becoming a Christian and continue to steal AFTER I allegedly become a Christian, then something is drastically wrong! If however, I am a SINNER prior to becoming a Christian, and afterward, though I am RENEWED because of the Holy Spirit, I sin from time to time (unfortunately), I do not lose my salvation. How can I lose my salvation if I am considered to be RIGHTEOUS from the moment I receive Christ? God NEVER sees me as unrighteous again – NEVER! It cannot happen because Christ’s blood has completely canceled ALL of my sin – past, present, and future. Beyond this, His righteousness has literally REPLACED my unrighteousness.

    When I sin from time to time, what that means is that I stop living FOR Christ and choose to live FOR myself. This STILL does not mean that I am now UNRIGHTEOUS. It means I have grieved God and need to CONFESS my sin so that I can be restored to fellowship.

    I am a bit tired of people accusing the doctrine of once saved, always saved, being created by men. It is not. In your entire post, you focus only on man’s responsibility. You do not focus on what God has said HE will accomplish in and through us. I’m sorry you felt the need to ask His forgiveness for what you considered to be sinful thinking. The reality though is that from my understanding of Scripture, Christ guarantees our security personally. Romans 1 – 8 clearly explains this entire process and ends with the fact that He will never leave or forsake us.
    I have yet to meet someone who denies once saved, always saved, who is devoid of arrogance. Of course the power of God CAN keep us from sin, but I am still free to CHOOSE to sin. This does not mean I have somehow rejected or lost my salvation. It means that I have sinned and grieved the Lord.

    Yes, we are called to be holy. But you know what? It is GOD who makes us holy and that happens when I receive salvation. Once I receive salvation, Christ’s righteousness is credited to my account. My “righteousness” (filthy rags) are gone and in its place is the beauty, purity, and fruitfulness of Christ’s righteousness. THAT is what makes me holy. The most I can do in this life is AGREE and SUBMIT myself to God every step of the way. It will never happen perfectly here, but only after my sin nature has been removed and I receive a glorified body.

    People like yourself seem to tend to spend their time focusing on how holy they are NOT, and so they put their hand to the plow and constantly look backwards. I contend that by focusing on Jesus Christ, my sin falls away and my desires are renewed, over a process of time. When I fall, I get up, confess my sin in earnest, and keep going, once again placing my eyes on Christ. It is when I start focusing on myself that I start to sin. I believe this whole modern “I need to be holy” movement is really just an insidious form of pride. Because the focus is on the individual, it is not on Christ. Because the focus is on ME, I am not concerned with living His life. I am more concerned with BECOMING holy. I believe the Bible teaches that as we focus our eyes on Jesus, we lose sight of ourselves. Because we lose sight of ourselves, we become concerned with FOLLOWING Him in His power. As we follow Him is His power, more and more of our self falls away and in its place is more of the character of Christ.

    You said, “There is a place of no return in God. A place where temptation is not a problem…and sin is not practiced. A place where man’s ‘spirit’ though still in the physical body fellowships with the ‘unseen’ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A place of righteousness.” I agree that this is the ideal, but there is NOTHING in Scripture that says we will be there in this life. In fact, Scripture teaches that the moment I receive Christ’s salvation, He DECLARES me righteous. You might want to thoroughly read Romans 6-8 on this.

    We shoot for being sinless in this life, but we will not attain it in this life. It appears that you are dangerously close (if not there) in believing that redeemed sinners can come to a point of sinless perfection in this life, while we yet live in our mortal, unredeemed bodies, still with our sin nature intact. I simply do not see this teaching in Scripture at all. In fact, in my view, it is one of the biggest sources of pride because again, the focus is on YOU, when the focus should be on Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    If all I did was spend the remainder of my life focusing on how holy I am NOT, and how holy I should BE, I cannot help but think that because my focus is solely on me, how am I actually serving God in the Great Commission? I cannot be looking at ME and serving HIM. That’s impossible.

    I am a saved sinner, by God’s grace. The life I live, I live by faith, but this does not mean sinless perfection. It means constantly submitting myself to Him, by focusing ON Him and what He wants to do in and through me for today.

    Yes, many professing Christians have misunderstood the doctrine of once saved, always saved (as I believe you have), but that is not the fault of the doctrine itself. It is the fault of sinful man who is unable to recognize what Jesus Christ has DONE for us and CONTINUES to do for us EVERY day. He did not simply save us then left us to tread water on our own. He is with us constantly upholding us, forever helping us to move toward Him and away from myself. The more I focus on Christ, the less I will focus on myself. The less I focus on myself, the greater the joy in following Him. That is how we live our holiness, not through self-effort to eliminate and destroy all that is within us.

    It is difficult to discuss this in only a few short paragraphs when the entire New Testament speaks to this. At any rate, thank you for your comments and I will respectfully have to say that I disagree with your position simply because it tends to denigrate God’s sovereignty. He is my salvation every day and He works mightily in and through me to accomplish His will. It is only when I take my eyes off of Him and focus on myself or my surroundings (as Peter did when he walked on water toward Christ), do I find myself sinking in sin. Focusing on Jesus means having no concern for myself. Jesus is my Victory and my Victor. Just as He provides salvation for me, He KEEPS me and GROWS me every day, as long as I repudiate Self.

    There have been a ton of books written on this subject. We’re certainly not going to have the final word on this, but again, thanks for writing.

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• 15. modres  |  March 3, 2010 at 2:28 PM

  Hi JD,

  Thank you. I praise the Lord that if I am that, it is due only to Him and His indwelling.

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• 16. JD Collier  |  March 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM

  Modres,
  I just read the above discussion and I must say, you are a very kind and patient man.

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• 17. modres  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:12 PM

  “What I was trying to say with David was, he being way before the sacrifice of Christ, could only have a hope of salvation since the way was not yet made. I hope this is agreeable.”

  You are completely forgetting that the cross of Christ IS always before God (present perfect tense). God does not live in our dimension of TIME. He lives outside of time and because of that sees EVERYTHING at once. God is not bound by our time constraints. When David lived on this earth, as far as God was concerned, the cross had already been established, which is the ONLY way that anyone living in the OT could have been credited with righteousness.

  “When he sinned he lost that joy of his salvation, which was not yet paid for by Christ. Would you still agree to this? And he wanted God to restore it in his repentance.”

  As far as God is concerned, the CROSS had taken place already. How could God be God and have to WAIT for the cross to happen?

  David only lost the JOY of his salvation. Scripture does NOT say he lost salvation. Prior to his sin, he had been filled with joy for the salvation he possessed. His sin took away that joy and THAT is what he wanted back. When he sinned, he fell out of fellowship with God, which is the same thing that happens to us. In his repentance, he wanted to have the joy that he had prior to sinning.

  “I am not trying to marry the two. I agree with some Calvin and some Armin. I was trying to use David as an example of a man who was long before Christ and His work on the cross as a man who had the benefit of the hope of salvation. I also tried to explain in an earlier comment that being saved from a life of sin because Christ put to death the old man, is a benefit too.”

  I see David as HAVING had salvation when he walked this earth. You see it as a HOPE of salvation (which he has NOW since he is with God). We are speaking of two different things entirely.

  “I was trying to show there are benefits to hoping in God. Just as our Father Abraham hope in God. It was this hope that God credited him righteousness. So we too have the same righteousness credited in our hope.”

  But you keep coming back to the word “hope.” To you, it means “I really HOPE I receive salvation some day.” In the Bible, it means “a strong confidence in.” Beyond this, since Christ’s death is BEHIND us, if we use your analogy of David having a HOPE because the cross was ahead of him, then why do we not have salvation now, if the cross is BEHIND us?

  Abraham was credited with righteousness SOLELY because he BELIEVED in God. That righteousness was applied to his life AT THAT POINT, based on the fact that the cross of Christ is always before God. He ALWAYS sees it.

  “I am not saying we can not have an assurance of salvation in this life. I absolutely believe we can. Just as it was spoken to Abraham that he was confident in the one who had made the promise, so can we who walk in the same footsteps of faith as Abraham.”

  But he walked in FAITH. He was credited with righteousness because he BELIEVED God. Because he saw God’s promises to him as being fully trustworthy, God credited him with righteousness. Salvation is always BY faith. It does not start out with faith, and end with our works. That’s Romanism.

  “Just as God called things that are not as if they were in Abraham life so God calls things that are not in our lives and gospel. Scripture teaches even our hope in Christ was foretold to Abraham in advance before he had a child. Abraham did not doubt God’s promises and of course neither should we. If we doubt then we are like those who look in the mirror and leaving forget what we looked like. Or those who doubt and should never expect anything from God. This is why without faith it is impossible to please God.”

  Of course faith is important. But again, you are acting as if God Himself is within the same constraints of TIME that we are. You’re also mixing a whole lot of verses in your above comments that do not necessarily connect. From James 1:5-8 states, “But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”

  James specifically speaks of asking God for WISDOM in that passage, yet you seem to be applying to asking for ANYTHING, including salvation.

  Regarding being a doer of the word and not merely a hearer, yes, James is stating that we should put our faith into our walk. Anyone can talk the talk, but a true Christian SHOULD walk the walk. Taking the Bible as a whole, it is impossible for us to live a sinless life in this world because even though we become Christians, we STILL have the sin nature. Our lives should stand out as different than those who ONLY talk the talk.

  When God told Abraham that he would have a son from his own loins, it was really a FACT that this would happen. Because Abraham BELIEVED God, he was righteous. God was going to do what He was going to do anyway.

  There were a few times both Abraham and Sarah doubted, but God’s FACT still happened. Again, your definition of HOPE needs to be looked at. It does not appear to gel with Scripture.

  “I do believe scripture confirms we can shipwreck our faith. We see in Revelation there is a point where Jesus will blot out names in the book of life. Just as a quick example.”

  But the reality is that those who DO shipwreck their faith, were likely NOT Christians to begin with. We can only judge from the externals. We have NO idea what goes on in the heart of a person. None at all. The individual who was found guilty of the BTK killings was an exemplary individual who had been deeply involved in his church for years. Was he a Christian? Of course not. Yet outwardly, he would have appeared as one. Since Jesus is the Author AND Perfector of our faith, the final responsibility of getting each and every believer to their eternal destination is HIS. We can either live the life of a Christian as it is MEANT to be lived (cf. Romans 6), or wind up living the life of a Christian as it is NOT meant to be lived (cf. Romans 7). The person who lives the former not only has eternal life, but numerous rewards. Those rewards have ONE purpose and they are to glorify God. The believer who lives the latter has a very mundane, frustrating existence to look forward to. While that individual will never lose their salvation, the works they did will all burn up in judgment.

  Revelation 13:8 speaks of those “whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”

  Revelation 3:5 the text does state “The one who conquers will be dressed like them in white clothing, and I will never erase his name from the book of life, but will declare his name before my Father and before his angels.”

  This could very well mean that the book of Life at one time included ALL people ever born, but only those who receive salvation ARE the overcomers, or conquerers mentioned. We are only conquerers BECAUSE of the fact that Christ lives within us through the Holy Spirit. If nothing else, we have overcome DEATH and HELL because we are saved.

  In fact, this meaning coincides with much of Scripture whenever the book of Life is mentioned. When Scripture interprets Scripture, the meaning gained from it is that believers are secure in Christ, because of His promises alone:
  John 10:28-30 for instance, where Christ promises that He will give all who believe in Him eternal life and no one will snatch them from His hand.

  You might read that and go, “See, Christ says that He WILL give,” believing it to mean at some future point. He IS speaking of the future, but He is specifically referring to that timeframe for EACH person who becomes a believer. It is at that point that they receive eternal life.

  “So what is my motive? I believe there are many who believe the doctrine of once saved always saved applies to them and who are not living for Christ. I would assume your book is to get those kind of people kicked in gear. I believe much more is at stake than eternal rewards.”

  Yes, from what I gather, you believe that Christians can LOSE salvation (or you would say, they could lose their HOPE of salvation). I have to say I disagree with you, because what it appears as though you are teaching is Lordship Salvation. You are teaching that in order to be TRULY saved, people have to live moment-by-moment with Christ as their Lord. While you would recognize that as imperfect believers, they will fall from time to time in sin, as long as they continue to confess their sin when they realize they have sinned, they will continue to live in such a way that keeps Christ as Lord of their lives. This individual WILL receive salvation (according to you).

  Your view is really nothing new at all. The debate between Lordship Salvation and Eternal Security of the Believer has raged on for decades.

  “As someone who used to believe once saved always saved, I used to not care about my sins, because Jesus made it so the Father had to forgive me. Yet I see in scripture those who are disobedient will not enter in.”

  The people who are disobedient are the ones who NEVER trusted in Christ for salvation. If Christ says He will NEVER leave us, how is it possible that some of those individuals can be tossed in hell? If Christ NEVER leaves or forsake us and He will NEVER let any of His children be taken out of His hand, how is it possible to LOSE salvation?

  Just as importantly, BECAUSE you misunderstood the portent of your salvation, and you lived licentiously, this does NOT mitigate the truthfulness of the doctrine itself. Your life and whether you live for Christ or not has NOTHING to do with the veracity of eternal security. You can’t blame it on that. The doctrine is either biblical or it is not biblical.

  People do this all the time with other doctrines, such as the Rapture, etc. The man-made arguments against the doctrine are pitiful. Either the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Rapture, or it does not. No amount of arguments presented by human beings, that “sound” intelligent will work to either negate or verify it.

  “I too want the truth of scripture and I see a different gospel based on the same promises given to Abraham and the same hope.”

  Yes, I know you see a different gospel, even though you accused me of propagating a different gospel way back when we first began this conversation.

  You essentially believe in Lordship Salvation, which is absolutely nothing new at all. For the Christian who does not take his life seriously and lives as you used to live, then that person is in grave danger, according to you. Now, you are of the opinion that you were WRONG, based on the way you LIVED, and so you believe that the doctrine itself must be wrong as well. Your lack of understanding in the truth of eternal security meant you ABUSED the truth. You did not realize just how much your sin angered God, and how much your sin caused Him to die for you. Because you did not understand the truths, someone came along and told you that you lived your life that way BECAUSE you believed in the “erroneous” doctrine of eternal security. So, BECAUSE your life WAS that way, you agreed and believed that it was the DOCTRINE you had believed in which was wrong, instead of understanding that it was a complete LACK of understanding regarding that very doctrine.

  Now, you have switched to a view that promotes WORKS to establish your salvation. This is NO different than the Roman Catholic Church, and EVERY other cult or sect that has existed or currently exists. ALL of them believe that while salvation may be free to receive, it is maintained by WORKS. If that is the case, this belief nullifies the grace of God.

  People cannot use this type of reasoning to determine whether or not a bilical doctrine is right or wrong. That’s reverse hermenuetics. You are using your EXPERIENCE or LACK OF UNDERSTANDING to decide whether or not a doctrine is built upon the Bible or upon the reasoning of men. You first looked at your life, and for some reason decided that it was not in line with Scripture. If it was not in line with Scripture, it must be due to not believing the correct thing. That part is correct. However, instead of realizing that your error was in your lack of understanding regarding the doctrine of eternal security, you threw OUT the doctrine, and embraced something else entirely.

  The sad fact of the matter is that your view now tends to create pride because salvation becomes something that people WORK to maintain.

  “I wished we could have a spiritual Mt. Carmel to show the way.”

  It would be nice, but I don’t see how. We believe in diametrically opposed views. I have spent some time listening to Paul Washer, for instance. It appears to me that while a good deal of what he says is truth, much of it seems to make people feel guilty for the fact that they do not live lives which please God. He is focusing on WORKS. Yes, there ARE supposed to be good works in the Christian’s life, but those works are accomplished the SAME way salvation is received, by FAITH.

  I have to realize that in my own strength and willpower, I cannot live a life that pleases God, even if it LOOKS as if I am to every other person around me. God knows if I am using MY strength or His strength. Anything I do in my strength, no matter HOW good it appears to be is BURNED up in the fire of judgment.

  Yet, the danger is that people who see things as you do might easily mistake someone who is either:
  1) not a Christian at all, but doing things that Christians do, or
  2) a real Christian but doing things in their own strength

  In either of the above cases, none of their works matter to God. It’s all filthy righteousness. The ONLY way I can please God as a Christian is to TRUST Him for His strength in completing the assignments He wants me to complete. If I am doing those things in His strength, it may look NO different on the outside to anyone. However, God knows that I – by FAITH – empowered by Him.

  You seem to believe that while salvation itself is received by FAITH, the entirety of the sanctification process relies on our ability to DO the things He wants us to do. The process of sanctification is God’s responsibility. I am to submit to Him. I am to make my life available to Him. Doing “Christian” things in my flesh is absolutely NO different than doing nothing, or merely living for myself.

  What it seems like you and others are preaching is that they MUST focus on their works. Their works must be acceptable to God. The problem though is that this puts the focus exactly where it is NOT supposed to be – on US. If I am truly His, and I am submitting my life to Him on a daily basis, this does NOT change my salvific standing before Him. What it changes is my CHARACTER that He is creating within me. Because while I am focusing on HIM, He is embuing me with His power in order to do those things that He has foreordained that I will do. In that frame of mind, there is NO work on my part, no strain, no difficulty. It is ALL Him. While it may take a season of prayer to GET there (as the example of Christ in Gethsemane, for instance in which He prayed THREE times before He was finally able to let it go), once we ARRIVE there, it is HIS strength that carries us.

  I wish we could come to some type of agreement as well, but I cannot see it happening, simply because our beliefs seem to oppose one another.

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• 18. glasseyedave  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:48 PM

  I don’t want to keep going tit for tat. I reread my comments and I can’t put two and two together on your conclusions of my comments. Sometimes I think I do the same thing to you. So sorry for that.

  What I was trying to say with David was, he being way before the sacrifice of Christ, could only have a hope of salvation since the way was not yet made. I hope this is agreeable.
  When he sinned he lost that joy of his salvation, which was not yet paid for by Christ. Would you still agree to this? And he wanted God to restore it in his repentance.

  You said way back-
  You are trying to marry Calvinism and Arminianism by having created a theory that says salvation is ONLY for the future. If this was true, you might have a leg to stand on, but in my view, the only way your theory will work is to wipe out any possibility of salvation benefits for me in this life.

  I am not trying to marry the two. I agree with some Calvin and some Armin. I was trying to use David as an example of a man who was long before Christ and His work on the cross as a man who had the benefit of the hope of salvation. I also tried to explain in an earlier comment that being saved from a life of sin because Christ put to death the old man, is a benefit too.

  I was trying to show there are benefits to hoping in God. Just as our Father Abraham hope in God. It was this hope that God credited him righteousness. So we too have the same righteousness credited in our hope.

  I am not saying we can not have an assurance of salvation in this life. I absolutely believe we can. Just as it was spoken to Abraham that he was confident in the one who had made the promise, so can we who walk in the same footsteps of faith as Abraham.

  Just as God called things that are not as if they were in Abraham life so God calls things that are not in our lives and gospel. Scripture teaches even our hope in Christ was foretold to Abraham in advance before he had a child. Abraham did not doubt God’s promises and of course neither should we. If we doubt then we are like those who look in the mirror and leaving forget what we looked like. Or those who doubt and should never expect anything from God. This is why without faith it is impossible to please God.

  I do believe scripture confirms we can shipwreck our faith. We see in Revelation there is a point where Jesus will blot out names in the book of life. Just as a quick example.

  So what is my motive? I believe there are many who believe the doctrine of once saved always saved applies to them and who are not living for Christ. I would assume your book is to get those kind of people kicked in gear. I believe much more is at stake than eternal rewards.

  As someone who used to believe once saved always saved, I used to not care about my sins, because Jesus made it so the Father had to forgive me. Yet I see in scripture those who are disobedient will not enter in.

  I too want the truth of scripture and I see a different gospel based on the same promises given to Abraham and the same hope.

  I wished we could have a spiritual Mt. Carmel to show the way.

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• 19. modres  |  February 18, 2010 at 12:21 PM

  You said, “I don’t see how what I am saying is any different than what David says. From your position, since David had only a hope of salvation, David should have no benefit from a hope. How is it that David can say, “restore unto me the joy of thy salvation?” What would he know of it?”

  The problem is that you are viewing the word HOPE as “I sure HOPE I have salvation,” when in point of fact, that is NOT what the word hope means in instances when referencing salvation. I would encourage you to do some intense word studies, as well as contextual studies.

  The reason David said “Restore unto me the joy of your salvation” is due to the FACT that he had just committed adultery with Bathsheba, and had her husband, Uriah intentionally murdered (cf. 2 Samuel 10ff).

  This prayer of David was stated within the consequences of that event. What David was asking for was God’s forgiveness and to once again know the joy of the Lord as he did BEFORE he had committed these two heinous sins. You have this right.

  You are ASSUMING thought that David did NOT have it previously, yet the word RESTORE means to “bring back.”

  David did not say GIVE ME the joy of your salvation. He said RESTORE unto me the joy of your salvation, which clearly implies that he DID have that joy PRIOR to the sin.

  In order for something to be RESTORED, David would have already have experienced that joy.

  You said, “You assume that there is no benefit to having a hope of salvation.”

  No, I am not assuming that. I am stating that it appears as though YOU are saying that.

  Here is what you SEEM to be saying:

  1) In this life, we only have a HOPE of salvation, because salvation is NOT ours in THIS life.
  2) Even though we only have a HOPE of salvation (in the next life), we BENEFIT from it in THIS life

  If you are saying the above, then you are contradicting Scripture.

  May I ask what your denominational background is? I’m curious.

  You said, “David didn’t ask of the Lord, restore the joy of my salvation, he asked for the joy of thy salvation.”

  But he still asked for the Lord to RESTORE it. So, are you saying that when David sinned, he lost the HOPE of salvation? You are splitting hairs. In other parts of Scripture, salvation is associated with the pronoun “my.” Again though, if David was asking that God RESTORE to him the joy of salvation, then it is clear that he HAD it because he experienced it BEFORE.

  I truly believe you are in error here, because the first six chapters of Romans deals with the fact that no one is justified in and of themselves. Romans 6 deals with the CORRECT way to live the Christian life. Romans 7 deals with the INCORRECT way to live that life.

  It sounds like you are saying that when we SIN, we cease to abide in Christ, therefore the HOPE of salvation is at that point canceled until such a time as we receive His forgiveness and once again abide in Him.

  If you are saying that, it is the exact same thing as losing your salvation.

  I do not know how to continue discussing this with you. You merely appear to be contradicting Scripture every time you make a post. It appears to me as if you are splitting hairs in a way that is not supported in Scripture.

  Salvation is given to us NOW, and it stays with us throughout this life. When we die and stand before Christ, we then experience the FULL value of our salvation, which we do NOT experience here. However, we still HAVE salvation here and it is BECAUSE we have salvation that we enter into the process of sanctification. Without possessing salvation NOW, sanctification cannot happen here.

  That’s where I stand on Scripture. Obviously you see it another way completely. I don’t think we can come to agree on this issue.

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• 20. glasseyedave  |  February 18, 2010 at 11:37 AM

  I don’t see how what I am saying is any different than what David says. From your position, since David had only a hope of salvation, David should have no benefit from a hope. How is it that David can say, “restore unto me the joy of thy salvation?” What would he know of it?
  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
  Now if I didn’t know better, if I had never read or heard of this prayer, I would conclude that it was the prayer of a New Testament believer. But it isn’t.
  We have assumed as New Testament believers, we have access to those things the people of Israel in our Old Testament scriptures never had access to. But apparently not. David after his sin wanted the joy of the salvation of the Lord back in his life. But maybe I stretch it a little bit? I am looking for something that is not there, right. David meant something else when he prayed to God. How could he ever let his heart rejoice in the Lord’s salvation when he never had it?
  I have been advocating scripture teaches we have a hope of salvation and that it will be given to us when Christ returns. Just as our New Testament teaches. You have repeatedly asked me, what would the benefit for a believer be if he hasn’t been saved. You assume that there is no benefit to having a hope of salvation. But what does scripture teach us?
  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
  If anyone had a hope of salvation it would be David, and yet he has the benefit of his hope of salvation. He is a 1,000 years before the sacrifice of Christ. Paul attributes to David the same knowledge of salvation that we share in the book of Romans. Paul wants his readers to understand their salvation and the imputing of grace, and he uses David as his example.
  So do we now separate the joy David had about the Lord’s salvation, from the reason the joy would come, the grace given. Did David have a joy of his salvation without having his sins forgiven? Did David have his joy without the Lord declaring him guiltless?
  How many of us quote psalms 51 when we are faced with our sins, and look to it for hope as we pray and sing this psalm. When we do this, do we splice and dice the meaning of the hope of salvation? Certainly not!
  David had a hope of salvation and enjoyed it as much and found comfort in it as much as we do. He knew what it was to have his sins blotted out as much as we do. As I advocate in my book The Gospel According to the Gospel our hope in salvation is no more and no less that what the saints of the Old Testament hoped for. David didn’t ask of the Lord, restore the joy of my salvation, he asked for the joy of thy salvation. He understood his salvation was in the Lord. This too is what the New Testament writers teach. This is why we have to wait for the Lord to return to bring us our salvation. He is our salvation and we wait for His return.
  The Gospel According to the Gospel teaches-
  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
  Have I errored again?

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• 21. modres  |  February 16, 2010 at 4:45 PM

  I really do not think I understand what you are saying. On one hand you seem to be saying that we do not have salvation UNTIL after we die, yet we benefit from it NOW, even though we do not have it.

  For the life of me, I cannot understand you. If you agree that we benefit NOW from salvation, then we must have it.

  You SEEM to be saying that salvation is like inheriting a million dollars. It is in OUR bank account. It is there. It is real. However, we cannot get to that money until our 21st birthday.

  If that is what you are saying, then that million dollars offers me absolutely NO benefit NOW. It is ALL down the road.

  You cannot have it both ways. Either we have salvation NOW, TOMORROW and IN ETERNITY, or we have NOTHING now, except a promise to receive it later on.

  You cannot benefit from something you do not actually POSSESS.

  You misunderstand my explanation of Hebrews. There are people who “have knowledge of salvation,” or understand it mentally. This is merely head knowledge. These people, though having a head knowledge of salvation, NEVER embrace it. They never do what the thief on the cross did. They never acknowledge their NEED for Christ. They simply understand WHAT salvation is in that it keeps people from going to hell.

  Though they understand it in that sense, because they NEVER embrace salvation, by entering INTO a relationship with Christ, they do not actually HAVE salvation.

  This is why I used the narrative of the rich young ruler. He understood EXACTLY what salvation was and that it was connected to repenting of something and embracing something else. He knew it! He knew what it would have cost him, and because he understood it so well, and realized he loved wealth more than that, he walked away from salvation.

  Some people are simply made happy by the fact that they UNDERSTAND what salvation is (because God opens their eyes), but if they do NOT act on that understanding, by fully EMBRACING salvation spiritually, then WILL walk away.

  Once they walk away and reject the salvation that they understand WILL save them, they cannot EVER come back to that position again.

  If you agree that Christ has made us alive, it follows that He only makes us alive based on our new standing in Christ. This standing comes from the Holy Spirit’s seal (which guarantees our inheritance) and the fact that we are NOW a new creation. This is part of salvation! These are some of the benefits of it NOW.

  You appear to be separating salvation from the things that the Holy Spirit does IN us and THROUGH us in this life NOW.

  Our sins would not be forgiven except for the fact that we have salvation NOW. We will see the FULL benefits of our salvation in the next life, but we absolutely experience salvation now.

  It seems to me that we are disagreeing over words. You believe you have come to a new understanding about salvation. You say that we do not NOW have salvation, yet we WILL have it.

  You say we cannot lose salvation.
  You say that we benefit from it now.
  You say that we are dead to sin.

  Yet, you also SEEM to be saying that we CAN lose salvation!

  My example of the athlete was also misunderstood by you. I clearly stated that the athelet ENTERED the race. It is only the first three people in any race that win a prize. What about all the others who finish the race? They get no prize?

  The actual race is salvation. EVERYONE will cross the line, but the reality is that if that athlete stops running and continues the rest of the way by walking, he is still in the RACE (has salvation).

  I’m not sure how to continue this discussion simply because we are not on the same page. You understand salvation one way and I understand it another. You believe you have found a way to marry Calvinism with Arminianism, yet in my view, Arminianism is not defendable.

  God is sovereign; completely sovereign. He has chosen those who will be saved from before the foundations of the earth. This is election. He has also predestined those whom He has chosen to complete the good works He has set before them.

  I’m really sorry, but I do not understand where you are coming from. Salvation benefits us now and while I will not enjoy the FULL benefits of my salvation until the next life, I DO enjoy benefits of it NOW. You stated so yourself.

  Comments like this one, “But it is ok for the “saved” to sin because they got passed their mental understanding of Christ. They go to heaven? We know Jesus said, he who loves me will obey me. How can we say we abide if we do not obey?” indicate to me that you believe we can lose our salvation.

  I’m STILL a sinner. I STILL sin. Ideally, it would be nice if I never, ever sinned again. The text you’ve quoted is actually referring to a LIFESTYLE of sin, not incidental, or besetting sins.

  We endeavor to please Christ by submitting to Him. We will NEVER be perfectly sinless in this life. Paul even talked about those who “fell asleep” in Christ because of their carnal lifestyle (in the Corinthian letters).

  The mental understanding of being saved is NOT salvation. This is what I tried to tell you with the Hebrews passage. ONLY those who are born from above go to heaven, not those who mentally UNDERSTAND what salvation is all about.

  Salvation is an absolute SPIRITUAL TRANSACTION. Upon receiving Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit takes up residence within me, He seals me unto the actual day of redemption, and He begins to craft the image of Christ, because I am given a new nature and have become a new creation. All things are new. This is salvation, which is a PROCESS. It is NOT a one-moment-in-time gift which is only used at that moment.

  The moment I receive Christ, I have salvation. I am SAVED now. If you are in effect saying that yes, we benefit from salvation NOW, but we do not receive the FULL benefits of salvation until after this life, I would agree with you. However, you keep coming back to “we cannot lose what we do not have.” If we do not have salvation NOW, then we cannot say we are saved. If we are not saved, we do not have the Holy Spirit within us, we do not have all of our sins forgiven, we are not declared righteous, nor are we a new creation NOW. These things are directly tied to salvation.

  You seem to be successfully confusing the issue, unfortunately, which may stem from a number of things. You seem to believe that even though we might now have salvation NOW, we still benefit from it IF we are going to receive it after we die. In this view then, salvation is a gift that Christ only gives us in the afterlife, and I do not see this in Scripture at all. How could the Holy Spirit possibly enter into us, make us a new creation, begin the work of making our character like Christ’s and all the rest if we do NOT have salvation NOW?

  How can I NOW be declared righteous if I do not YET have salvation?

  I’m really sorry, but it seems like you are trying to split hairs. If you believe you are correct, that’s fine. I can find no way to marry your concepts with God’s Word, because I honestly do not believe you truly understand the portent of what Paul and others state about salvation. I’m not trying to be rude, but your view makes no sense, simply because it appears to contradict itself.

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• 22. glasseyedave  |  February 16, 2010 at 4:20 PM

  Hi modres,

  Please understand that I have never said there is no benefit, if we are not saved and only have a hope of salvation. Scripture teaches there is a big benefit, as we look for Christ to bring us our salvation.
  (Eph 2:1-5 NIV) As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved.
  In the hope held out in the gospel we have been saved from a life of sin. We no longer have to obey sin. The old man is dead and behold the new man. Praise God! Then of course we have all of His promises that are still yes and amen.

  Please understand that I have never advocated that it is impossible to commune with God, because we have a hope of salvation. We have our sins forgiven. The sin that has separated us from Him is removed. And as long as I humble myself before the Lord, He will lift me up. Even when I sin and call upon Him.

  Please understand that I never have advocated that we are not declared righteous. Scripture teaches we have been grafted into the promises of Abraham. This first promise is we are declared righteous. Scripture says, it wasn’t for just him this was spoken but for us who put our hope in Christ.

  About Calvin and Armin, you seem to agree that my understanding of scripture would reconcile this huge chasm of doctrines and the scriptures used by both sides. Isn’t this a good thing when we see scripture flowing in harmony? You say my idea will work if it didn’t wipe out benefits for this life. As I said before, I have never advocated there is no benefit of the hope of salvation as mentioned above.

  Your saying an athlete who doesn’t finish is still an athlete is like saying, those who confess Lord, Lord will still call Jesus Lord when they go to hell. More than rewards are at stake.

  It bothers you that I say we have eternal security and it is yet to come when Christ gives us our salvation, as you can see from my website tab, Got Salvation. This doesn’t mean we loose our salvation. We can not loose what we do not possess. This is why scripture talks of faith and assurances of salvation.

  As far as being wary of my new line of thought, it will be tomorrows blog. As far as using Systematic Theologies, it is today’ blog. Because my thoughts on these were to wording and a little more passionate.

  Your defense of Heb 10:27 is confusing to me. You seem to be advocating it is not good for the “unsaved” to continue to sin once they have a mental understanding of salvation, because they go to hell. But it is ok for the “saved” to sin because they got passed their mental understanding of Christ. They go to heaven? We know Jesus said, he who loves me will obey me. How can we say we abide if we do not obey?

  I appreciate your honest conversation.

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• 23. modres  |  February 15, 2010 at 11:03 AM

  Thanks for your response. The MAJOR problem with your belief that we do not YET have salvation is that you view salvation as ONLY something that is completely future.

  Scripture indicates that there are MANY benefits to salvation NOW. I also firmly believe you are confusing SALVATION with REWARDS.

  Many times, Paul uses analogies of the warrior, the athlete or something else to encourage the recipients of his letters to continue to press on. He wants them to press on for the REWARDS, not for SALVATION.

  Of course, at the same time, if there are ANY who read his letters that do NOT have salvation, he wants to ensure that they HAVE it.

  If there is NO benefit to salvation NOW, there is absolutely NO point in exercising faith for it. Because we are sealed at the moment of our conversion experience, that alone is the guarantee of receiving the FULL benefit of salvation upon our deaths.

  If I do not have salvation NOW, then there is absolutely NO way that I would be able to commune with God. There is no way that Paul would say that I am NOW a new creation, and ALL things are new. There is no way that Paul would tell me that I HAVE BEEN cleansed by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood.

  These things and many others are the results in the PRESENT tense of the salvation that I have rec’d. As soon as I receive Christ’s salvation, I am immediately baptized into His Body.

  Forgive me, but I truly do not believe that you understand what salvation is for us NOW, as well as what it will be for us in the FUTURE.

  I would encourage you to do some serious (and I mean serious) study before you continue to pursue this view of salvation. There are MANY benefits of salvation for us NOW, not merely in the future.

  The MOST important one is the fact that Paul states in Romans (chapters 1-6) that I am NOW justified. I am literally declared RIGHTEOUS NOW, which allows me to enter into the “Holy of Holies” as it were. The fact that I am now righteous gives me access to God’s throne, as a SON. I am adopted into His family because of my faith in Jesus Christ and His salvation.

  In fact, it is clear from Scripture that because of salvation, God the Father sees NO difference between ME and Jesus (in His humanity) NOW.

  Your argument is ONLY good if salvation has absolutely NO benefit now. I believe Scripture indicates that we enjoy MANY benefits of salvation NOW because of our salvation.

  You are trying to marry Calvinism and Arminianism by having created a theory that says salvation is ONLY for the future. If this was true, you might have a leg to stand on, but in my view, the only way your theory will work is to wipe out any possibility of salvation benefits for me in this life.

  Paul’s constant remonstrations against “falling away” have mainly to do with him wanting those he has personally worked with to lay all things aside and push on to the prize.

  It is very much like an athlete in the Olympics. They can be completely dedicated to their craft and become the very best they can become (which STILL does NOT guarantee that they will WIN, as we see in the current Winter Olympics), OR they can NOT be completely dedicated to their craft, enter the race and come in last, or give up the race because of a lack of ability to finish.

  If the athlete does NOT finish the race, they are STILL an athlete. They ENTERED the race, but either did not finish or did not win. In either case, what they have failed to gain is a medal (reward), but they are STILL an athlete.

  What you are actually teaching is there is no such thing as eternal security. In essence, you are saying what Roman Catholicism says and many others who believe that salvation can be lost. You are saying that salvation – while it is completely free – MUST be maintained by works.

  I know you are excited about the possibility of having found a “new” way to look at things, but I would be extremely wary of heading down the wrong path.

  I would encourage you to purchase a number of good Systematic Theology sets. I know that you already have a mindset that believes “pastors” doctor the text. But what you are missing is that unless you know Greek and Hebrew fluently, what you and I read are TRANSLATIONS. You HAVE to go to the original verbiage and if you cannot personally do that, then you must prayerfully rely on those who HAVE because of their knowledge of the original languages.

  There are men who have produced some very excellent Systematic Theologies, which I believe casts a very clear light on many areas of Scripture. While these men’s works are NOT inspired as the Bible is inspired, God has given these men to the church because of the gifts HE gave them. Those gifts have been used to further our understanding of God’s Word.

  For instance, you quote the Hebrews passage: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,(Heb 10:27 NIV) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God”

  You ASSUME that the writer is speaking of a person who HAS salvation. In point of fact, what I believe the writer is speaking of is a person who UNDERSTANDS (mentally) salvation, but has NEVER made a spiritual commitment to it. As I mentioned, this is clearly seen in the rich young ruler. Christ explained to him EXACTLY what he was to do, and the rich young ruler understood that exactly. He was also saddened by it because he did not want to give up his wealth. His response to Christ? He walked away. Had had literally received knowledge of the truth, but refused to embrace it.

  The writer of Hebrews is NOT talking about someone who IS a Christian (authentically), and then walks away from the faith later on in life.

  At any rate, I pray that you will continue to search the Scriptures, not for what you THINK the Bible says, but for what the Bible actually says. If we are going to teach God’s Word, we had better be sure that what we are teaching is EXACTLY what God means, not what we think it means.

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• 24. glasseyedave  |  February 14, 2010 at 6:58 PM

  I believe scripture teaches we have a hope of salvation and therefore we do not have salvation, we wait for it. So we can not loose our salvation because we never had it in the first place. Once Christ comes and gives us our salvation we will be eternally secure. Until then a person can fall away from the faith that could save them. That is why scripture teaches to endure to the end in order to make our hope sure.

  You are correct that there are those subjects such as predestination and election that are not on my blog. It is a very new blog and I am still trying to put it together. I haven’t spelt out those on my blog yet, but how could we be less predestined or less elected if we are not given salvation at the altar but when Christ returns. To me it is the same election and same predestination. Would you agree with this?

  I to agree that Jesus is the Author and perfector of my faith and when He gives out His rewards and I then posses the crown of life no one can take me out of His hands. Why else would Jesus warn the church in Revelation?
  (Rev 3:11 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
  We see men shipwreck peoples faith:
  (1 Tim 1:18 NIV) Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,(1 Tim 1:19 NIV) holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.(1 Tim 1:20 NIV) Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

  I do not see the doctrine in scripture that a man can not walk away from God. The Bible is full of men who walked away from God. Instead I see the doctrine of men being called back to their God. It is my belief, the misrepresenting of the timing of salvation by the church by saying it is at conversion, instead of the hope that it is, births this false doctrine that once saved a man can not fall away from God.

  For brevity I will not discus 1) redemption, 2) justification, 3) sanctification. But I would like some light on your thoughts about them.

  You are right, we are declared righteous when we put our faith in Christ, just as our father Abraham was declared righteous. Not just him, but him and all his descendants, and the New Testament teaches the sign of this righteousness was circumcision. Yet we know not all who are declared righteous are, for it is the circumcision of the heart that matters, and this is what scripture teaches. We are no better than those who have gone on before us. We have not been given an irresistible righteousness that can never be infringed upon, no more than those who were before us. We have and must walk a life of faith in obedience to the promises of God, or we will be like them not entering into our rest.

  If a man’s past, present and future sins are forgiven then why do we have warnings in scripture that talk about no sacrifice for sin is left for those who are disobedient? No one can quote a scripture that says past, present and future sins are forgiven. But I can quote one about the past sins.
  (Rom 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
  So now we live by the spirit and not the flesh and look for the promise being lived in our lives that says sin’s curse is broke, that we are not slaves to sin any longer.

  Scripture teaches that our names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. It also teaches names can be blotted out. In fact the warning was to the church from Jesus Himself. So I could not take such a position that a man can never walk away from God if he is a believer.

  Never once have I stated that one needs to continuously earn the right to keep ones salvation. I have tried to say, unsuccessfully, that we need to walk in obedience and faith in order to make our hope sure. Even though I believe with all my heart we are all waiting for Christ to bring us our salvation, I have no more less hope than you do concerning this. I do not go around doubting my hope.
  (Heb 6:11 KJV) And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
  (Heb 10:22 KJV) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

  You are right when you say we are credited righteousness. But we are credited righteousness until the day we receive righteousness.
  (Gal 5:5 KJV) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
  (2 Tim 4:8 KJV) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

  As far as you not being able to do anything that can negate the righteousness that God has given,
  (Heb 10:26 NIV) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,(Heb 10:27 NIV) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

  Yes in Ephesians 2 we have been seated with Christ in the heavenly realm. That is why the warning:
  (Heb 6:4 NIV) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,(Heb 6:5 NIV) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,(Heb 6:6 NIV) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

  I truly do appreciate our conversation. I am not trying to be coy or abusive. I simply have the conviction scripture teaches something different. And as I stated before it nullifies the argument between the Calvin and Armin when we put salvation at its proper place, when Christ returns.
  (Heb 9:27 NIV) Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,(Heb 9:28 NIV) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

  Why would I care? I am concerned many have the false security of a false salvation and live like the devil, walk away, have not faith, you name it.

  (Luke 13:24 NIV) “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
  And again we are warned:
  (Heb 4:11 NIV) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

  You pen pal glasseyedave

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• 25. modres  |  February 14, 2010 at 5:10 PM

  Hi,

  Unfortunately, your answer tells me nothing except possibly that you DO believe people can lose salvation.

  You appear to be saying that when we receive salvation, we go through this life with the present possibility of being able to fall FROM that salvation.

  I read the comments on your Blog, and unfortunately, I think you have to do a lot better than that to prove your point. From what I can see, you did not adequately even address predestination and election, both discussed by Paul, Peter and others.

  The reality for me is that Jesus is the Author AND Perfector of my faith. He has promised that NO ONE will be able to take anyone out of His hand. They would have to be stronger to do that. We cannot (as I have heard some say) simply walk away from Him if we choose. There are too many aspects of salvation that are completely out of our hands. Here are just a few:
  1) redemption
  2) justification
  3) sanctification

  I cannot live a perfect life of sinless perfection, which means I do and will sin. The forgiveness that Christ extends to me, covers all my sin, past, present and future. When I receive Christ, I am immediately declared righteous.

  These things are non-negotiables. They are things that GOD does on my behalf. Of course, I am obligated to live a life of obedience to Him, but that does not mean that when I sin, I lose my salvation. It means I break the fellowship that I have with Him, until such a time as I agree with Him that what I did was sinful.

  My hope is in Christ. The promises He has given go with that territory. He has saved me (from before the foundation of the earth), He daily saves me and He will save me.

  Far from this being a license to sin, what grows in me is the increasing desire to DO for Him, as He DID for me. This is the PROCESS of sanctification that continues throughout my life.

  As I said in the beginning, I am sorry that you believe you need to continuously earn the right to keep your salvation, or that you can never know that you have salvation in this life.

  Believing IN God and His promises is what grants salvation. It is what Adam and Eve failed to do (preferring to believe the Tempter instead), yet throughout the OT, we see that Abraham believed, Enoch believed, Noah believed, Lot believed, David believed and many others. They were credited with righteousness BECAUSE of their belief in God. That righteousness is GOD’s righteousness, not theirs, yet it was IMPUTED to their account.

  If when I receive Christ as my Savior, He credits me with His own righteousness, there is nothing I can do to negate that righteousness. As I indicated, Paul says in Ephesians 2 that we are ALREADY seated with Christ in the heavenly realm. There is your PRESENT tense. I’m not sure how he could have made that more clear.

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• 26. glasseyedave  |  February 14, 2010 at 3:49 PM

  Because of the promises, and lamb slain from the foundation of the world, foretold to Abraham, Moses and the prophets, mostly now fulfilled in Christ, we who put our hope in these promises have a sure hope of salvation, because we know the one who has made the promises, unless we become like those at Mt. Sinai who fell into sin and disbelief.

  Thank you for the conversation.

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• 27. modres  |  February 13, 2010 at 6:53 PM

  I guess I am not quite sure what you are saying. In one or two sentences, explain it to me. Are you saying that while we are guaranteed salvation NOW, we do not receive it until LATER?

  Or, are you saying that while we have the promise of salvation NOW, we WILL receive it LATER, as long as we do not LOSE it NOW?

  Which one of the above is closest to your view? If neither one is, then give me one or two sentences that firmly clarifies it. Do NOT include Scripture for now, all right? I’m obviously NOT opposed to Scripture, but I’m not asking you to PROVE your position with Scripture. I’m simply asking you to tell me exactly what you mean, in as few words as possible, and not worry about proving it right now.

  I have checked out your site.

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• 28. glasseyedave  |  February 13, 2010 at 3:21 PM

  Hi Modres,

  Thank you for taking the time.

  Please let me state that I never would say anyone must earn or work for their salvation, but I would repeat someone who said, ‘workout you salvation with fear and trembling.” Nor would I ever say works in a believers life is unimportant, but I might repeat someone who said, “as body without the spirit is dead so is faith without works.” I too believe it is by grace that we are saved into a living hope thorough the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

  You commented, “If you will believe on the Lord Jesus, you IS saved.” Does that makes sense grammatically? Yeah that sounds terrible. But saying, “If you believe on the Lord Jesus, you are saved.” Does sound better. I would give room for Paul to say that if he meant it.

  If we say to a person, if you open you eyes you will see,, we expect them to see when they open their eyes. This is what we do with scripture concerning our salvation. But our scripture teaches if we endure to the end we will be saved. So who would say to the same man, If you open your eyes to the end you will see? So maybe will be is, shall be and is a future event.

  We have the Holy Spirit as a deposit yes, and it guarantees our inheritance until we (God’s possession) are redeemed. (Eph 1:14 NIV) who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.

  When God called Abraham He said you are the father of many nations. The New Testament says that in this God called things that are not as if they were. Abraham had no children when God spoke this to him and Sarah was barren.

  We also see God calling things that are not as if they were in Isaiah when was wounded for our iniquities and so forth. The whole prophecy is in the past tense 700 years before it took place.

  Why not God calling things that are not as if they were, when scripture says we are saved, so then it doesn’t contradict those many passages saying we haven’t got it yet. It is simply a pronunciation of the faith and agrees with God’s promises to us. After all faith is hope in what we do not yet have. Paul says who hopes for what we already have.

  So if we see in the gospel God calling things that are not as if they were, as he did for our father Abraham, and we have a hope of salvation, then it makes sense why scripture teaches we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and the call to make our hope sure.

  With this approach, what Calvinism teaches is right, once we are saved, we are forever saved. And the Armenians are right when they say a man can follow God and still turn and go to hell. Why because our salvation is a hope that we must endure to the end to receive. We must finish the race. The error is everyone thinks salvation comes to us at conversion but the evidence is the opposite. If we place salvation at Christ return and then look at Calvinism and what the Armenians say we get a different understanding.

  (1 Pet 1:5-9 KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

  With this view of scripture we erase the age old contradictions of Calvinism and the Armenians. How because they assume salvation at conversion, which leaves lots of room for pitting scripture against scripture. If we understand salvation to be given to us when Christ returns then it completely destroys the controversy between both views.

  So, I invite you to look at my website where I am trying to show this in more detail with a lot of scriptural support. I am building now, but I do have things on there. I welcome your comments.

  If this view can do away with the age old debate between Calvin and Armin does this at least cause a desire for more discovery?

  Thanks for your kind ear.

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• 29. modres  |  February 12, 2010 at 11:40 PM

  I don’t have a lot of time now to respond to your points, but suffice it to say that you seem confused about the verb tense in Paul’s responses.

  Peter did the same thing in Acts 2 and other places. The use of “will be” is actually an indication of a future tense, because the present moment has already gone by.

  But the entire thing that Paul says is FUTURE: If you WILL believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, you WILL be saved. The implication here is that since believing on the Lord Jesus is FUTURE, the result of believing on Him is also future.

  What Paul means is that AS SOON as you believe on the Lord Jesus, you will HAVE salvation.

  I’m not sure why this is difficult to understand. According to you, Paul should have said:

  “If you will believe on the Lord Jesus, you ARE saved.” Does that makes sense grammatically? On one hand, Paul is pointing to something that will happen in the FUTURE, and on the other hand, you are stating that he should have said the result of it is in the PRESENT.

  Salvation is something I have NOW, but I will also HAVE in the future. It is an ongoing PRESENT tense. I’m saved this minute and the next minute and the next minute.

  Even if the text states, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” it is an implied future state (believing).

  There is no doctoring of the text at all. You are reading into something that is not there.

  If I say to my son:

  “Dave, mow the lawn, then we will head over to the card shop,” the entire sentence is FUTURE. Yet, the implication is that AS SOON AS he finishes mowing the lawn, we will go to the card shop.

  Paul is not saying,”Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and WHEN YOU DIE, you will be given salvation.”

  In fact, in Ephesians 2, he states that we are ALREADY seated with Christ in the heavenlies. How can THAT happen, if we do not yet have salvation, and might possibly LOSE it?

  Paul also states in Ephesians that we are already SEALED with the Holy Spirit that is a guarantee of our salvation.

  The hope of salvation does NOT mean “Oh man, I sure HOPE I have salvation.” I would invite you to do some serious word studies on “hope” as it is used contextually, in the original languages.

  The word “Hope” does NOT mean that there is a chance I might never receive salvation. It simply does not mean that at all.

  Lastly, I’d like to point out that there is a seeming competing contrast between those who HAVE salvation and those who might not actually have it, but are in danger of falling away. The most well known passage is probably Hebrews 6:4-6, where the writer speaks of falling away after having tasted the heavenly gift, or those who have been enlightened. Many take this to mean that the individuals in question were actually saved when the plain fact of the matter is that the writer – in my view – is speaking of those individuals who have been INTELLECTUALLY persuaded or convinced of the basic truths of salvation. Though they understood the TRUTH, they never EMBRACED it.

  It would be like the if the thief on the cross all of a sudden realized who Jesus was, and did NOT ask Him to remember Him when He came into His kingdom. Had the thief never asked, he would never have been promised paradise. There are MANY people who intellectually understand the truth of the gospel, yet for one reason or another, they reject it. The rich young ruler did this and a number of others in the New Testament.

  These people possessed a saving KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He purchased, but they were NEVER spiritually committed. This is why there are so many places in the NT where it APPEARS as if Paul and others warn about falling away. As a human being, Paul could not ultimately know who was saved or not and that was not his job. Only God knows.

  Unfortunately, the best we can do is discern by looking at the outside of a person, since we can never see the inside. When Christians sin, we do not lose our salvation. We cease being in fellowship with God, until such a time as we confess our sin. This is one of the truths of the Prodigal Son. He NEVER stopped being his father’s son. He simply STOPPED fellowshiping with his father, until he finally realized how low he fell. At THAT point, in full humility and sorrow for the trouble he had caused, went back to his father and expected nothing more than to made a servant. His father though would not hear of it.

  I will check out your site and if nothing else, it will provide me with some great information to rebut in my book.

  I’m sorry that you believe you must EARN your salvation after having received it as a free gift.

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• 30. glasseyedave  |  February 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM

  I know when I started studying about our salvation, I came up with an unexpected conclusion. As demonstrated below.

  Many of us have been led to a faith in Christ, or have led others to the same faith in Christ because we have called on the name of the Lord.
  And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
  Many of us have made the good confession of faith and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead.
  That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
  The church says that we are saved the moment we call upon the Lord. We believers agree we are saved, because we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
  One of the things that aspiring pastors are taught is to study the Bible. They are also taught not to read into the text. But it appears the church has been doing a little doctoring of the text by reading into it.
  We doctor “will be” and make it mean “is”. We doctor “will be” and make it mean “are”. By doing this we change The Gospel According to the Gospel and declare ourselves saved, instead of what it means, “will be saved”. If it is appropriate to doctor the text, is it appropriate to doctor “will be” in the following verse?
  Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved–and that by God.
  Paul writing to the church of Philippi, of whom I assume they too have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord when they called upon Him, hasn’t changed the tense of the meaning saved. Paul is still saying those believers in Christ at Philippi “will be” saved, just as he wrote in Romans to those who would believe his message. Just as those who would call upon the name of the Lord.
  If Paul meant they in the church of Philippi were saved, why didn’t he write “you are saved”. I have to assume that Paul talking to the church in Philippi and addressing them to contend as one man for the faith was talking to the believers in Philippi not the future, currently unrepentant believers.
  So what have we in the church done? We have chased after another gospel other than what was left to us from the Apostles. We have doctored “will be” to say something Paul never meant it to say, something the Holy Spirit never meant it to say. So let us, when we speak of our hope of salvation, no longer doctor “will be”, let us instead believe and put our hope in The Gospel According to the Gospel. Let us believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths what is written, “we will be saved.”
  I found scripture teaches we have a hope of salvation. When we get saved when Christ comes back, yes we are eternally secure, but until then we can shipwreck our own faith that would bring us to the end of our race. Below is a link of scriptures I put in story form that show we are not saved. Might be fun for your studies.
  http://thegospelaccordingtothegospel.wordpress.com/posses-salvation/

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