Study – Grow – Know

6 Comments Add your own

• 1. Jim  |  June 22, 2017 at 8:48 AM

  I have noticed you repeatedly make reference to the Bereans and how they checked out what the Apostle Paul was preaching. I do commend you on this but the question I try to consider is their reference material they used to examine what was preached. I do believe they only had the Talmud and the rabbinical teachings to compare it against. You see Paul preached Christ crucified and the Kingdom of God. Paul was a living example to the Great Commission, Go and preach AND make disciples.
  To have a view of only evangelism is error as well. This is why one of the gifts given to the church is pastors and teachers for the building up of the church.
  The things of the Spirit are revealed by the Spirit which must be in accord with the Word of God. In the same sense many think they know what the scriptures teach, there is much given to the wisdom of man today, but what happens when the Holy Spirit shines His light on one of our dogmas and we see it is not as we thought.
  Do not lump all charismatics and Pentecostals in the same mold otherwise we would have to do the same with Protestants and Methodists. They have accepted going against one man, one woman marriage and refuse the infallibility of the Word of God.
  Be very careful as to not anticipate how God will work. He used an Ark to save man, had them wonder in the wilderness for forty years and brought a Savior through a virgin birth. We live in extraordinary times and Christ will return for a bride. One that is acceptable for the
  groom.
  John the baptist said,” He shall baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
  What and where is the fire in the church today?

  LikeLike

  Reply

  • 2. modres  |  June 22, 2017 at 9:21 AM

    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for your thoughts. I think we would essentially disagree on the “sign gifts” and other aspects within the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement that are often seen and used in today’s church settings. Unfortunately, much of what is seen as coming from God’s Spirit is error, in my opinion, just as there are numerous things I disagree with doctrinally over issues related to aspects of Methodism, Presbyterianism, and other denominations.

    As someone who was deeply involved in the Charismatic Movement in the 70’s, I look back at it now and wonder how I could have been so wrong. The answer is that I was heavily relying on my feelings instead of His Word. That may be different for you, but that is where I was coming from as were many others I knew within that movement. It is a very ripe field for tremendous error because of how often people determine God’s truth based on how they feel about something.

    Any alleged revelation from God must align itself with Scripture, whether old or new. While certainly Paul received divine instruction directly from God (hence, he could reveal previously hidden “mysteries” as he noted on numerous occasions), please note that most of his doctrine came directly from the available Scripture at that time. Paul was so heavily steeped in Scripture that it only took God to help Paul understand that all Scripture points ultimately to Jesus and his perspective changed forever. He understood how often Scripture he had been taught focused on Christ and he could then (after his conversion), easily extrapolate that information into new writings that fleshed Jesus out for us. Much of the New Testament relies heavily on the revelation of the Old and there is a very direct connect. As just one example, the book of Revelation constantly pulls from and leans on many sections of Scripture from what we call the Old Testament.

    Regarding the Charismatic meetings, I specifically recall on MANY occasions where people would give a “word” of knowledge that was actually not in sync with God’s revealed Word. On more than one occasion, I even heard the pastor give a definition of something that had been stated and instantly I knew he was wrong because it did not gel with God’s revealed Word.

    There is plenty of “fire” from numerous Christians today. The issue is what type of “fire” are you looking for? God wants people dedicated to Him and His purposes. The evidence of “fire” is clear from a person’s walk. I would argue that “sign” gifts are not needed for this anymore than sign gifts are needed for two people to be in love, commit themselves to one another until death do they part, and continue in that commitment during times when they “feel” like it and when they don’t.

    I don’t believe I have a “view of only evangelism.” I sincerely realize that the Church exists for two things: to build up the flock in order so that the character of Christ is reflected within us AND that they might be better evangelists. Without the former, the latter will have little success. Too often, churches today are doing everything they can to bring people in. This is often done through watering down the Word and de-emphasizing certain things so as not to offend. In that case, Christians are not built-up and true evangelism does not occur. There are also warnings by Jesus Himself (as well as Paul, Peter, and others), that in the End Times, people will fall away. Does this mean they will lose their salvation? No, it means they will lose their fervor and become extremely lazy about living the Christian life. The same thing happens between two people who were truly in love, yet get to a point where their only choice seems to be divorce. The problem? Both of them to one degree or another stopped living committed lives to the other person. They became sidetracked and lazy, and instead of focusing on the things they liked in the other person, they started seeing things they did not like and those things became the focus. It ultimately divided them and pushed them away from one another. How do you get that back? Is it through an infusion of “ecstatic” feelings of love for the other? No, it is through a renewed commitment and desire to focus on the things that were originally found to attract. It takes work and effort for that to happen. The same applies to being a Christian.

    Like making marriage work, being a Christian takes work. How many Christians do you know that DAILY spend time with God and His Word? We are to immerse ourselves in His Word, not look for or expect ecstatic experiences. We get to know God through His Word and by being in communion with Him. We get to know our spouses because we are first committed to them and because of our efforts to get to know them and put ourselves second. The more each spouse does this, the better the marriage will be. God expects that of us in our marriages and certainly in our relationship with Him. We cannot get to know Him if we refuse to spend time with His Word or in prayer. What I learned from the Charismatic Movement (and that still applies today, unfortunately), is that we too often want the short cuts. We want the ecstasy, the spiritual highs, the revelations and the deeper meanings. We want God to simply give them to us but we’re not willing to study His Word to gain meaning from what He has already revealed to us.

    This is why Paul says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Is Paul saying we need to work FOR salvation? No, he’s saying we need to be diligent in being sure we are committed and remain committed to God our Savior. He will supply our need. As we submit to Him and His will, He will provide the strength and resolve, but we have to WANT it. In my view, successful Christian living does not come through sign gifts, but through our constant submission to God as Lord.

    When two people fall in love, it simply happens, doesn’t it? People don’t have to work to fall in love. However, to cement that relationship and grow in it, work is necessary. I think you’d agree with that.

    However, you might likely state that “building up the church” includes the presence of sign gifts. I would respectfully disagree with you. Building up of true Christians within any local assembly includes teaching people to rely on God so that Christ’s character is creating and being embedding within us. This comes not through sign gifts but through a willingness by each Christian to submit to His leading. As we give way to that – and sometimes it takes a great deal of prayer and struggle as Jesus did in the Garden of Gethsemane – God fills us with His love, His patience, His stamina, and His ability to trust Him to a greater degree. This is what 1 Corinthians 13 is all about. Notice Paul’s de-emphasis on tongues there. Loving God as He loves us is tantamount to being an enabled Christian. All of this translates to Christ’s character being recreated within us.

    I don’t think I group all Charismatics/Pentecostals together. In fact, some sects are wildly out of sync with Scripture in my opinion, while others at least try to live within the constraints of Scripture. What I will admit to is stating that I no longer believe (and haven’t for quite some time), that the sign gifts, including so-called speaking in tongues and “words of knowledge,” are valid for today. I see very little point to it when most Christians never even crack open His Word.

    We have churches that believe God is still appointing “apostles,” yet it is clear from the book of Revelation that there are only twelve (12) that God appointed: “And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb,” Revelation 21:14.

    We have churches where it is believed that God gives people “words of knowledge” for other people. We have people standing up and “prophesying” about this or that. I personally experienced it and still see a great deal of it on YouTube. I believe these folks are wrong and I believe they are giving way to the “flesh.”

    You and I can respectfully disagree. We are not going to convince the other of our respective positions. It’s probably best to leave it at that, but I sincerely appreciate your comments and giving me the opportunity to address them. Thank you and may you have a very blessed day 🙂

    LikeLike

    Reply

• 3. matthewbeech27  |  June 6, 2017 at 12:37 PM

  Heh, I remember getting called out last year by my pastor and an elder for sharing this post. Apparently calling Hillsong a cult and their music dangerous could make our kids think that we are supporting a cult.

  I was told that I should watch what I post until it’s been looked into and that music would continue as usual.

  My question was which was a better course of action, playing the music from a group that may have (and does have) damning doctrine until they investigated by the elders or stop playing the music from what could be (and is) a soul damning cult until otherwise determined? Essentially, I tried to make the point that in the Church it isn’t necessarily good to go with innocent until proven guilty. We are called to guard the flock not kowtow to popular opinion.

  Needless to say, nothing was done.

  LikeLike

  Reply

  • 4. modres  |  June 6, 2017 at 1:01 PM

    Hey Matthew,

    It’s the same story when some of the “celebs” within Christendom are questioned by people who still have and use critical thinking skills. Churches have split, pastors have been fired, and arguments started over disagreements regarding specific individuals who have become well-known for their books, their conferences, their “story-telling” ability, or all of it.

    There are too many “sacred cows” held up and highly esteemed by too many within churches today. It’s verboten and politically incorrect to criticize them or what they stand for and it is so because many of these leaders/teachers are quite charismatic (I don’t mean that in that “tongues” or “charismatic gifts” area either). Because they are charismatic (aka “very likable”), to speak against their teachings is to, in effect, “judge” them negatively. After all, how could someone who makes you feel so good with their teaching and story-telling (or song), be bad?

    However, I agree with you completely. No one is above having their words, their teachings, or in Hillsong’s case, their songs critiqued. Certainly Paul would do that and he encouraged all to do exactly what the Bereans of Acts 17 did. We need to take what we hear and compare it to Scripture. If it doesn’t fit, we need to toss it aside and that may also mean separating ourselves from the source of that error if they dig in their heels and persist in their error.

    LikeLike

    Reply

    • 5. matthewbeech27  |  June 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM

      Yeah, it’s really sad. Recently, they started a teaching series for the guys breakfast by Tony Evans. When I showed, from his own teaching and interviews, that he is semi-pelagian (which makes him a heretic) I was told that it was a good opportunity to tell the men that sometimes we can learn something from those we disagree with.

      For reference, he claims that Christ’s death covered original sin for EVERYONE and the only thing that God is angry about now is our rejection of Him.

      Wha?!? Seriously?!?

      It’s really sad since the pastor and the church started out solid but has slowly been going down the slippery slope due to lack of discernment.

      I haven’t given the fight up yet, if for no other reason than I am the youth “pastor” and can at least teach them properly and hopefully instill some discernment as well.

      LikeLike

    • 6. modres  |  June 6, 2017 at 2:01 PM

      Discernment is sorely lacking today. There are way too many heretical views accepted as truth. Very sad indeed.

      LikeLike

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Trackback this post  |  Subscribe to the comments via RSS Feed