Study – Grow – Know

43 Comments Add your own

• 1. Simon  |  May 8, 2011 at 7:03 PM

  Can you actually stop attending that group, leave it for a mainline, orthodox denomination and STILL believe that you are saved?

  Answer: for SDAs yes. Whilst living in London for a number of years, I attended Hillsong Church because the SDA Churches there were too conservative (e.g. Ellen White, Investigative Judgment, no drums for music and all that).

  I see. So you willingly CALL yourself an SDA, have a Web site that defends the SDA party line, but you also state that you do not follow White, or believe in Investigative Judgment? If this is the case, then I have to wonder why you would associate yourself with a group that is by most accounts a cult?

  That would be like me being a Mormon, but then picking and choosing which doctrines I disagreed with, but continued to worship AS a Mormon.

  There is nothing wrong with attending church on Sunday (at SDA Conventions they have church everyday) but I still kept the Sabbath – i.e. ( didn’t shop, didn’t watch TV, tried to take time to re-connect with my wife. We also went to a youth group run by SDAs that ran once a month on a Friday night (also the Sabbath).

  But the reality is that you legalistically keep the Sabbath (Saturday as if you are Jewish). If you truly believe what you have just said, then you are a terrible Seventh-day Adventist.

  Going to church has nothing to do with being saved – one isn’t saved by any outward sign, be it baptism, communion, bible knowledge, church affiliation or any ‘sacrament’. However, these things are important for one’s spiritual growth. It is why Christianity is meant to be a communal religion, and Jesus is where two or three are gathered in His name.

  That said, I do agree with you Fred insofar as SDAs, Mormons and JWs all consider themselves ‘Universal’ (literally ‘Catholic’) Churches. This is also the same as the 1 billion Roman Catholics and 300 million Eastern Orthodox (who believe the Eucharist and other sacraments are an integral part of salvation). It is also the same for your conservative Exclusive Brethren. I agree this is quite different from many Protestant denominations, which are often little more than regional or liturgical churches, and mixing and matching is much easier.

  You make quite a few assumptions, Simon. You sound very lawyerly, like you’re right in the courtroom trying your case before a jury. Man, if you could only hear yourself!

  Regarding the “universal” aspect of the church, JWs, Mormons, and SDAs believe that they are the TRUE church, not merely the universal church. You make another assumption, or you are simply trying to redirect here.

  Finally, how do you go in Churches that don’t share your Dispensationalist views, or have these also changed over time?

  Asinine question.

  Reply

• 2. modres  |  May 8, 2011 at 9:10 PM

  Here’s the scoop, Simon. I am commenting on the essentially beliefs and teachings of Ellen G. White, who is one of the founding members of Seventh-day Adventism.

  Whether you or anyone else BELIEVES that Ellen G. White’s teachings are prevalent within SDA today or not is moot. There are PLENTY of people within the SDA movement who follow White religiously.

  If as you say, you take issue with a number of White’s key teachings, then in essence, you are not a true Seventh-day Adventist and would not be considered one by Ellen G. White.

  You say you want to only deal with the Bible, yet on your own Web site instituted to refute what you consider to be false beliefs about SDA, you rarely use it yourself.

  At any rate, here’s the deal…since you – by your own admission – are not a true follower of Ellen G. White, then you are not really qualified to comment on the strict views of White as they apply to SDA. The SDA movement is largely based on White’s teachings. You are an exception to the rule, much the way the individual who believes either Darby or Scofield is a prophet is an exception to the rule.

  So here is the way this will be from here on out. If your comments continue as they are – drawing attention to you as an exception to the rule, as opposed to commenting on actual “orthodox” SDA beliefs, then your comments will not be published. I have no desire to censor you, however, it just seems to me that you are too busy misdirecting and drawing attention AWAY from the core beliefs of Seventh-day Adventism, by pretending that the preponderance of people within the SDA movement think as you do.

  So, as of now, we will stop playing the game. You have your Web site and that should work for you.

  Thanks for understanding, Simon.

  Reply

• 3. sansea  |  May 9, 2011 at 7:12 AM

  Hello. I am emailing you because your ‘blog’ contains information that is misleading and misinformed. Your blog writer (whoever this is) apparently knows very little about the Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine and even less about the Bible. The reason for SDA Christians worshiping on Saturday is scriptural-completely scriptural. So why do you attack those who choose to worship on the day that Jesus Christ himself kept? No where in the bible does it command us to delete God’s Sabbath day and replace it for Sunday. It is just not there. Keeping Sunday over the true Sabbath is merely FALSE worship. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, rested in the grave on Saturday (Sabbath) and rose on the first day of the week. I realize that Sunday worshipers like to use this as a basis for ‘first day’ observance. This stance does not and cannot hold up because there is no where in scripture where God ordained or changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In essence Sunday worship was never sanctified or blessed by God. Rather, it was a man (Emperor Constantine) under the Papacy who instituted Sunday as a day of worship. Read the history of the christian church and see more clearly. Better yet, read exodus 2: 1-3 and Exodus chapter 20:8-11. Review the 10 Commandments. See also Ezekiel 20:12 and Ezekiel 20:20. By the way, the 10 Commandments were NOT nailed to the cross. If they were, then why does “mainstream Christianity” and “orthodox” ‘Christians’ still follow ’9′ of them? The only commandment that ‘you’ (in your terms:orthodox/”mainstream” ‘Christians’) choose to delete is the 4th Commandment in which God clearly specifies which day the Sabbath is. The Sabbath is on Saturday- the 7th day of the week- NOT the first day of the week. God told us to “REMEMBER” THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY.” Jesus Christ and the apostles kept the Sabbath. See Acts 13:42-44. The Seventh Day Adventist church as God’s remnant church stands alone. It is not linked in any way with the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses as you proclaim. If you say that Seventh Day Adventists are NOT Christians, you will have to explain Galations 3:26-29. ( If we are in Christ, we are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise.) God’s people must be obedient to His word. See Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12., Revelation 22:14; Revelation 22:12-14. Those who disobey God’s law are NOT His true people. Commandment breakers will have no part in the kingdom of Heaven. Those who willingly disobey God’s law on earth will not be a part of God’s remnant people. Christ is coming back for His ONE TRUE CHURCH. SUNDAY WORSHIP IS NOTHING BUT PURE PAGANISM FROM THE DEVIL. GOD HAS PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT CHURCH DENOMINATIONS AND HE IS CALLING THEM OUT OF FALSE WORSHIP. (See Revelation 18:3-4 and see John 10:16. In John 10:27, the bible says: “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” See 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.

  THOSE WHO DO NOT COOPERATE WITH GOD HERE ON EARTH BY KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS WILL NOT COOPERATE WITH HIM IN HEAVEN. YOUR RELIGION
  FALSE IF IT IS NOT BASED ON THE TRUTH. FOLLOW GOD’S DIRECTIVES NOT THE DIRECTIVES OF MAN.

  Jesus said in John 14:5, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

  May the Lord bring you and yours more understanding as you study His word.
  -SS

  Reply

  • 4. modres  |  May 9, 2011 at 8:51 AM

    Hello Mrs. Sandra,

    You open your comments with an attack on me, but you accuse me of attacking SDA, an ideology. You have attacked me personally, whereas I am simply trying to cut through all the jargon within the SDA and provide insight. If you disagree with my findings, that’s certainly up to you, however please do not claim that I am somehow attacking SDA.

    The fact that you believe I am mistaken in my views and understanding not only of SDA theology but the Bible is an opinion only. There has been much discussion regarding SDA theology and origins by many before me. You won’t end the discussion by attacking me personally. My biggest question is this: are you saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? The way you talk about having to obey as if that is dependent upon the maintenance of your salvation leads me to believe that you are legalistically bound up in following the letter of (certain) laws. All I’m asking you and others within SDA to do is to ask yourself in the quietness of your heart whether or not you are convinced of your salvation. The problem though is that you cannot be eternally convinced of it because for you, there is the chance of losing it. This is merely a holdover from erroneous Roman Catholicism, which believes that salvation is gained and maintained by works plus grace.

    Of course, you would disagree with me, but I do not see this in Scripture. Peter speaks of our obedience to Christ for instance, but that obedience in context refers to obeying the truth that LEADS to salvation. That truth is found in Jesus and His atonement for us. It is no different than when the thief on the cross realized who Jesus was and at that moment, he obeyed the truth that was revealed to him. He understood that if Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords, he needed to embrace that truth (obey it) and in doing so, humbled himself in order to receive salvation from Jesus that very moment.

    It is because of LOVE we seek to obey Jesus in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit. This does not maintain our salvation as some erroneously believe. When I receive Jesus as Savior and Lord, my sins – past, present, and future – are completely wiped out. He no longer remembers them at all. If ALL of sins have been completely dealt with and literally cancelled, then how is it possible to LOSE salvation when I do sin in the future? It’s not.

    SDAs teach that salvation can be lost, that eternal salvation is not really eternal. Though it may begin in this life, it is tenuous until after this life. This is nonsense. What Jesus did was to finish everything that was necessary in order to provide eternal life to us starting now. According to your own beliefs, you have no surety of salvation. If you STOP worshiping on Saturday, you are in danger of losing the salvation that you believe you have now. In effect, your salvation then is based not on faith alone, but on faith plus works. If you stop worshiping on Saturday for instance, or if you fail to see as truth many of the teachings of your prophet Ellen G. White, then you are in danger of losing what you believe you have.

    Obedience in Jesus comes from a pure heart, a heart of love, but it is not something we do that keeps or maintains our salvation, no more than the reason I do things for my wife is because I feel that I had better. I do things for my wife because I love her.

    The problem with this is that we can get into all sorts of splitting hair contests, which will amount to nothing. In the quietness of your heart, pleas ask yourself if you believe fully that your sins – past, present AND future – have been permanently dealt with and if so, whether or not you have eternal salvation now. You don’t have to report back to me. You simply need to ask yourself what I’ve outlined.

    If you TRULY believe that ALL of your sins have been dealt with including future ones that you have not yet committed, then your salvation is based on faith alone. Yes, I realize that this attitude CAN produce an attitude that says “Hey, my sins are all gone, so I can sin as often as I want to!” but of course, that is a key sign that the person who thinks like that is either EXTREMELY immature in Christ, or not an authentic Christian at all. At the very least, that person does not understand the weight of our sin on the cross.

    There is disagreement among SDA theologians as to which pope actually changed the times and the seasons. Some do not believe that any pope changed anything, but in fact, moving from Saturday to Sunday worship was done by the early Christians in Acts to separate themselves from Judaism.

    While ALL of the law – 613 of them – were given to ISRAEL, as Christians we have an obligation to follow TEN of them, which represent His MORAL code for His children on earth. However, given that, we do NOT follow those laws in order to gain or maintain our salvation. We follow them because we love the Lord. Since I do not believe that a pope changed the times or seasons, but that Christians began to meet on the “first day of the week” in the book of Acts, then your understanding of Church history is – in my view – false.

    The idea – or belief – that a pope changed the times and seasons, making him the Antichrist – by which he moved worship from Sunday to Saturday is preposterous, especially given the fact that SDA people do not even agree on which pope actually and allegedly changed the times and seasons.

    You live by the law, and I suppose then that you understand that you MUST obey ALL of the law, not just the ten commandments that you find easy to do.

    The entire book of Galatians is about Judaizers; those who were attempting to force people to follow the law in order to gain salvation.

    This is what SDAs do. They attempt to enforce certain laws of the Old Testament (but not all of them) as a means of salvation. No, they do not directly come out and say that salvation is by works, but you implied it clearly below in your comments.

    Worshiping the Lord on a “sabbath” is reverting back to the Old Testament, from which we are free. By THAT, I mean that we are no longer obligated to live the 613 commands. As Christians, we should obey ALL of God’s moral law from the heart because we love him.

    Mrs. Sandra, I’m afraid to say that your understanding of Scripture is severely lacking. I’ve written over 24 books on a variety of theological topics, including one of my latest on the book of Revelation. I may not have perfect knowledge (no one does in this life), but I know my way around God’s Word.

    The question YOU need to ask yourself is this: if YOU walk away from Seventh-day Adventism and start worshiping with another group, say like Baptists, or Independents, will you LOSE your salvation?

    Thanks for writing.

    Rev. Dr. Fred DeRuvo (Th.D)

    Reply

• 5. Simon  |  May 9, 2011 at 8:07 AM

  Fred, what I believe about Ellen White is the same as the pioneers believed and she believed of her self – nothing more. My views ARE the ‘orthodox’ views now held by a majority of Adventists, commonly called Evangelical Adventism. There is no ‘orthodox’ SDA ‘belief’ – there always has and always will be a spectrum of beliefs within the SDA Church. Never heard of Desmond Ford? A huge number of contemporary Adventists don’t believe in the Investigative Judgment, or don’t believe in the 1844 aspect (but still believe in the phased-judgment aspect), or believe there are multiple meanings. That is my point. Who are you to say I am not a ‘real’ Seventh-day Adventist?

  What you really want is only for conservative, historic adventists to comment on this website. They are not ‘orthodox’ Adventists, nor proper reflections of the first SDA pioneers, but adherents to a view formulated within Adventism after Ellen White’s death from the 1920s-1980s.

  If it has come to the point where you feel you must now simply censor me then that is your prerogative.

  Reply

  • 6. modres  |  May 9, 2011 at 8:50 AM

    Please note sansea’s reply regarding my posts, Simon. Please tell her that she is not “orthodox” regarding Seventh-day Adventism.

    Simon, your comments are becoming exceedingly more redundant and superfluous. You really answer little to the questions I pose, and you simply repeat the same things over and over.

    Yes, I’ve heard of Desmond Ford. Did not know his nickname was “Mike” though.

    I also note that he was dismissed from Seventh-day Adventism for his views on Investigative Judgment. Since you seem to agree with him (at least on that subject), then by rights, as I stated, you are a terrible SDA. It is like some of the folks trying to take Herbert Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God (which began as a cult) and turn it into something that is mainstream and evangelical. It really can’t be done.

    You are staying with SDA, though you admit to not following certain basic and unique tenets of SDA. By your very admission then, you are correct, you are not the person that needs to be commenting here. The person who needs to be reading my blogs and commenting are people like “sansea.”

    You see, you are so busy trying to protect SDA from critique that you appear not to care for those individuals who are lost in the error of it.

    So, without further ado, I think you’re done here, Simon. By the way, it’s not so much that I am interested in censoring you. It’s just that your responses are irrelevant to the discussion.

    Reply

• 7. Cheryl Dormire  |  June 10, 2011 at 8:49 PM

  I feel bad for you…the devil is leading you and you don’t even know it, Moses laws and the 10 commandments are not the same. One is God’s law. Please God open the eyes of the ones you need soon, so many more won’t follow the lies but so many will learn the truth and will follow Jesus and not be led down the wrong path. If you have faith, you love God with all your heart and you want to please him by doing as he asks us.

  Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, “I am the Christ,” and will deceive many. “And you will hear of wars and rumors os wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet, for nation will rise against nations, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines, pestilence and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another, Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24 4:13 and on…keep reading

  Reply

  • 8. modres  |  June 10, 2011 at 10:29 PM

    So Cheryl, am I to understand that you are calling me a false prophet? I’ve never said or implied that I am “the Christ.”

    I doubt seriously that you feel bad for me, Cheryl. That is simply something someone says as an aside, or negation before they rip into the person.

    I’ve written books on Matthew 24 and Revelation. Which group do you belong to Cheryl, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Seventh-day Adventists? Moses’ law and the Ten Commandments are not the same? Funny, but I recall that God gave ALL 613 laws to Moses (not just the Ten Commandments). Why aren’t you following ALL of them, or are you not aware that Paul says that he who follows ANY portion of the law is required to follow ALL of it? You may wish to read the entirety of Galatians…

    Cheryl, regardless of whether you are a Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness or SDA, the theology within all those systems is filled with holes and as I said, they all claim that salvation is BY works AND faith. It is faith ONLY that saves us. None of my good works go toward my salvation at all. But we could debate about it forever. Instead, just take it to the Lord, all right?

    Reply

• 9. Dorthea Parrow  |  June 16, 2011 at 10:34 PM

  Ooh dang i just typed a big comment and immediately after i hit submit it come up blank! Please satisfy tell me it worked effectively? I dont want to publish it yet again if i do not need to! Both the weblog glitced out or i am an idiot, the latter doesnt shock me lol.

  Reply

  • 10. modres  |  June 16, 2011 at 11:20 PM

    Sorry, this is the only comment you left.

    Reply

• 11. Andrea Kennedy  |  June 26, 2011 at 2:09 PM

  I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. I would like to affirm from the bottom of my heart that Seventh-day Adventists teach and believe that we are saved only by the blood of Jesus. As we behold what Christ has suffered to save us from our sins and look beyond the veil by faith to see Him pleading His blood on our behalf, we desire to show our love for Him by attempting in the strength that He provides to honor God by obeying His commandments as revealed in Exodus 20 and in the Sermon on the Mount. I do not believe I would loose my salvation in any way by fellowshipping with Christians of other faiths. My salvation is in Christ alone. Not even my feeble attempt of observing the seventh-day Sabbath merits me anything. All my righteousness is as filthy rags but in these efforts to honor the law that He spoke and wrote with own finger on tables of stone and promised to write in my own heart, I show Him and those around me that I love Him supremely.

  Reply

  • 12. modres  |  June 26, 2011 at 8:58 PM

    Hi Andrea,

    Thanks for writing. In looking over your comment, while parts of it are clear, others are not.

    There are any number of things within Seventh-day Adventism that are questionable. If you truly believe that your salvation is gained through faith and nothing but faith in Jesus, that’s wonderful. There are Seventh-day Adventist who would disagree with you regarding the ability to lose your salvation as well as a number of other things.

    Reply

• 13. Biggie Small  |  July 23, 2011 at 6:23 AM

  Nice blog. Nice replies. In the end I’m still persuaded that Satan fell from grace because he went against God. Had there been no God for him to go against, none of this theology debated here would have mattered. Let’s extrapolate, ten commandments fit nicely inside a box. That box fit nicely inside a sanctuary, that sanctuary was a shadow of the real thing… Hmm, ten commandments always existed along with God. Hence, Satan fell by breaking them. I agree that the ten were nailed at the cross, in the sense that they were fulfilled by Christ. But this compass guides my life. I do not kill, steal, or break the Sabbath command. I’m an SDA. EGW and other controversial topics, forget it. If you can’t get past the basic understanding of the word “remember”. As in, God said remember, how can you remember something if it never existed… Remember meant it existed before then. I think God himself at creation was doing as he always did on Sabbath, he chilled… Get past that and then we can begin to systematically study the other things you are curious about, but are too prejudiced to comprehend.

  Reply

  • 14. modres  |  July 23, 2011 at 10:39 AM

    It’s funny how your own theological prejudices blind you to several inconsistencies. On one hand you say that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross, yet you follow them as they “guide” your life. Beyond this, you use a straw man argument regarding Satan, when you say, “Had there been no God for him to go against, none of this theology debated here would have mattered.” In truth, if no God existed, we would not exist at all, much less Satan.

    You might be interested to know that there are over 600 laws, not merely ten. The Ten Commandments represent God’s moral law, yet when Jesus died on the cross, He did not simply nail those ten to the cross, but He fulfilled (nailed) all the laws to the cross. While yes, Christians are to keep the moral law of God, we do not do this FOR salvation. We do it BECAUSE of our salvation.

    When you say you do not “kill, steal, or break the Sabbath command,” what you are saying is that you uphold the letter of the law. But how about the spirit of the law? Have you ever been angry enough with someone to wish they were dead? Though you may never have committed adultery, have you ever lusted after someone in your heart? If so, according to Jesus, you HAVE committed adultery with them.

    Obeying the moral code of God is absolutely fine. In fact, authentic Christians are called to do so, and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us the strength to obey the law – both in the letter AND the spirit – that allows us to live a life of holiness to God.

    Your last statement, “Get past that and then we can begin to systematically study the other things you are curious about, but are too prejudiced to comprehend” is simply arrogance on your part. You are as prejudiced theologically as you claim I am, so that all by itself does not allow you to empathically understand my position. You have deliberately placed yourself in a position that is HIGHER than me. This means that you have succumbed to pride, which means you have sinned. This is the same sin that Satan gave into and because of it, was not only found severely lacking, but was cast from heaven.

    If you believe you are saved, that’s fine. You don’t need to debate with me about it and in fact, debate generally serves little to no purpose in things of this nature. You’re set in your views and opinions as I am. So what do we accomplish? Nothing, aside from exhibiting a “one upmanship” type of response.

    I believe – by God’s grace – I understand a great deal. My heart goes out to people who believe that living by the Ten Commandments is the way TO salvation. It is not. “It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and not by works, lest any should boast,” (Ephesians 2). God made salvation extremely simple. Man takes salvation and ADDS to it because he cannot be content in thinking that God provided salvation completely free, with no strings attached.

    Authentic salvation prompts the Christians to live a moral life before God. Counterfeit salvation (which is no salvation) says that man must do something, some type of work(s) in order to GAIN salvation and even MAINTAIN it. Though I clearly see from Scripture how this error can be seen, I also believe that it is just that: error.

    I have met SDA individuals (and others) who firmly believe that they have not sinned in years, solely because they have kept the letter of the law. The problem of course – and Jesus pointed this out on numerous occasions – is that anyone can keep the letter of the law. It is the INTENTIONS of the heart that create an environment for sin.

    I can truthfully say that I have never committed adultery. I cannot – unfortunately – say that I have never lusted and according to Jesus, lusting after a woman is virtually the same thing as committing adultery with her. The only differences are the consequences following each sin. If I merely lust in my heart, I am sinning against God. If I commit adultery, I am sinning against God and my wife.

    Had King David lusted in his heart and stopped there, he never would have made a complete mess of his life by committing adultery and then committing murder.

    “In the end I’m still persuaded that Satan fell from grace because he went against God.” I agree. The difference between Satan and humanity is that Satan was a created being NOT created in God’s image. Humanity WAS/IS created in God’s image, which is the sole reason why humanity is redeemable and Satan is not.

    Salvation is not following the letter of the law. It is following Jesus to the cross, realizing our need for repentance and agreeing with God that we have fallen short and are in need of Someone to lift us up, something we cannot do ourselves. When we arrive at that point, we come to realize that salvation is found in Jesus, through faith, by grace. This is what separates authentic Christianity from every other religion out there.

    Reply

• 15. minidray215  |  July 26, 2011 at 1:15 AM

  I’m just commenting because I think it’s funny that all, if not most, the comments were made by SDA’s. It made me laugh

  Reply

  • 16. modres  |  July 26, 2011 at 9:40 AM

    Yeah, it is a bit ironic.

    Reply

    • 17. minidray215  |  July 26, 2011 at 9:47 AM

      why did you decide to blog about this? Are you religious? or belong to/used to belong to any of the aforementioned denominations?

    • 18. modres  |  July 26, 2011 at 11:00 AM

      Am I religious? I am a Christian, which means I am in relationship with Jesus, so no, I am not religious. I am a Christian.

      Why did I write about it? I explained that in the post.

      No, I have never belonged to any cult, by God’s grace.

    • 19. minidray215  |  July 28, 2011 at 8:59 AM

      Well, I’m not here to ‘dog you out’ on your blog or even to get angry in the way you expressed your opinion. I respect your passion, and can even agree that some members of the groups listed above can be extremely…”focused” and even close-minded to the thought that anyone outside of their religious denomination could be saved. In one of my earlier comments I wrote that I thought it was funny that most of your comments came from those who are SDA. I found it particularly ironic because I was raised in the Adventist church, have been baptized into the church, and now find myself commenting as well.
      You posted “can you actually stop attending that group, leave it for a mainline, orthodox denomination and STILL believe that you are saved?” As an Adventist I believe that this is very possible not next to IMpossible. There is an ongoing joke (that I find hilarious) that when we make it to the kingdom, Christians will huddle together and told to be quiet. When asked why they must stop rejoicing someone points and responds that ‘the Adventists are over and they think they’re the only one’s here”…yea you might not find that as entertaining as I did….but i think it gets my point across. you also wrote “It is through my association with Jesus Christ that I have salvation”. Many Adventist will agree with you. When the thief died on the cross he wasn’t Adventist. He asked for forgiveness and sincerely accepted Christ for who he was THATS why he was saved not because he didn’t eat pork, believed in EGW, or even worshiped on Saturday. i believe that Following the Bible and accepting Christ are the ways to eternal life not which church you’ve been associated with. i have close friends who are both Morman and JW. They believe as I do. Especially when I started college, but even before, I attended “Sunday church” and found them uplifting with fun genuine people who I really enjoyed being around because of the zeal they had for Jesus. I cannot believe my comment is this long but I just wanted you to know that while there are people who believe and act as you stated above, we’re not all like that. Especially in times such as this when it’s more important than ever to band together.

    • 20. modres  |  July 28, 2011 at 10:14 AM

      Here is the problem I have with cults in general – and you specifically mention Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as groups with people who believe as you do regarding salvation. The largest difficulty is the DEFINITION of who Jesus is from these groups. If I view their theology, I cannot help but come away with a DIFFERENT Jesus. For instance, in both Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is not God, the Son. He is “a” god. This is not what Scriptures teach, in my view. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was God, is God, and will always be God. As God the Son, He chose to add humanity to Himself in order that He might be born and live among us a perfect life, which allowed Him to offer Himself as our atonement. Only God could do this.

      It is interesting that both Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Triune God (as I believe is clearly taught in Scripture), yet they seem to not see that while they generally refer to Jesus as “a” god, they find no problem with idolatry in that view. The Trinity is beyond the scope of human understanding; however, this does not negate it, simply because we have a difficult time comprehending it. Mormons do not have an orthodox view of the Trinity and neither do Jehovah’s Witnesses.

      If Jesus is not THE God, then people who say they worship Him are worshiping something or someone else. Understanding that Jesus IS God is tantamount to truly understanding salvation. His identity is so interconnected with salvation that the two cannot be separated.

      If you know people that remain either Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, then I have doubts about their understanding of WHO Jesus is and how His identity relates to salvation. If people say they believe that salvation comes by grace through faith (and not works), that’s wonderful. They need to go a step further and determine exactly in WHOM they believe. Is Jesus to them merely a man who was elevated to a form of godliness? Did He start out as all human beings, or did He start off as God the Son and as Philippians and Colossians tell us, take on the FORM of humanity, which literally clothed (or covered) His deity from view?

      I can only “band together” as you say, with people who share my view of Jesus. I believe He has always existed (John 1:1) and that He has always existed as God the Son. To this deity, He merely ADDED the human form. He became fully human, while retaining His full deity.

      Many within Seventh-day Adventism do not believe this and it is because of this alone that I define them as a cult, just like I am forced to do so with Mormonism and those who adhere to Jehovah’s Witnesses. A Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness who comes to accept Jesus as fully God and fully Man, in essence rejects some of the main tenets of their faith. As such, how can they remain with those groups?

• 21. Billy  |  August 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM

  I’ve seen a lot of good videos on youtube with good information about occult, health and overall knowledge of the worlds corruption of society. Only thing is alot of these videos saying they are ‘Christian” are really SDA and they never tell you up front. I feel it’s very deceptive as only a vigilant and discerning follower of Jesus Christ can see where their views stem from. I’ve been fooled on many occasions where I agree with most of the things concerning what they say scriptually but then they go in the whole Law and EGW doctrines. The biggest concerning is how they believe someone can lose their salavation when they have geuniunely accept Jesus as their Lord and savior. Also the ideal of Jesus being an Angel or appearing as Angel is strange as well. I have no problem with people worshipping on Saturday as we all can agree it is the Sabbath day but when they condemn people for worshipping any other day then your really out of touch with reality. I say worship God at all times!

  Reply

• 22. Sigdrifa  |  October 16, 2011 at 1:29 AM

  As the Sabbath was observed on a lunar calendar, surely it would not have been a specific Saturday or Sunday anyway? Also, as the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons have changed/added extra-Biblical doctrines, beliefs and tales – I am not very well versed in the SDAs – it would have to be fairly obvious that they are not Christians. The tales invented by Joseph Smith are merely the product of a pubescent fantasy, and to suggest that God is just one of many, many gods running their own planets is outrageous. Great blog Dr Fred!

  Reply

• 23. John  |  November 18, 2011 at 5:04 AM

  If we’re compelled to obey the ten commandments out of love and conviction, wouldn’t we be compelled to obey all of them? What makes Saturday/Sunday the sole exception?

  I mean, are there genuine hardships people run into for worshiping on Saturday as opposed to Sunday? Or are there nine other commandments out of the ten, which other denominations also consider irrelevant?

  And don’t forget: The 10 commandments were written in stone and handed down by God himself (“set in stone”, as the saying goes), whereas the other 600 or so laws were not.

  The imagery is pretty powerful.

  Reply

  • 24. modres  |  November 18, 2011 at 7:31 AM

    Hi John,

    First of all, there were actually 613 laws that Moses gave to the people of Israel. While many were only for the tribe of Levi, the rest were for ALL Israel. Are you following ALL those laws, or just the “ten”? You seem to want to pick and choose, saying that since God “wrote” the Ten Commandments Himself, those are the only ones we need to follow. This would ostensibly mean that the others were “not that important.” This is asinine and wrong.

    Also, please bear in mind that ALL of the laws – including the Ten Commandments – were given to the nation of Israel. The Church of Jesus is under a different set of rules which are summed up in loving the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. If you study the Ten Commandments, you see WHY they are essentially summed up in the two laws I’ve just mentioned.

    As opposed to living in and under the Old Testament times, the Church lives under the umbrella of love. Paul makes it clear that worshiping the Lord on a particular day is up to the individual Christian. One might worship on Sunday, while others might consider every day a day of worship (cf. Romans 14:5).

    If I am truly a slave of Jesus (which I am), then how is it I can view days DIFFERENTLY? Aren’t I obligated to view every day as a day in which I fully worship the Lord? I think so.

    There is also ample evidence that the early Christians actually worshiped on the first day of the week (Sunday) because they wanted to separate themselves from Judaism. However, people like Paul – a Pharisee – would still go to the synagogue on Saturdays.

    Now, if you want to be legalistic about it, then not only should you worship on a Saturday, but you should also be circumcised, and follow all the dietary laws of Judaism. Paul speaks to this problem in his letter to the Galatian believers.

    I know I’m not going to convince you of anything, John. Your points have been answered well by many others and if you’ve read them and are still not convinced, then it is obvious, you are not even open to considering any other viewpoints.

    Look, Seventh-day Adventism was essentially started by a woman. Paul clearly stated that he does not allow a women to teach a man (cf. 1 Timothy 2:12). Why? He tells us why. “And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”

    In effect then, you are part of a system that began due to the teachings of a woman. By the way, Paul is NOT saying that women are second class citizens. He simply defined their role in the church.

    It is amazing to me how people pick and choose. While you are so focused on which day to worship, you fail to recognize that your sect was started by a woman and Paul says that because of the deliberateness of Eve’s sin, they lost their chance to be a leader. Unfortunately, many women spend their entire lives trying to regain what they lost.

    There are many problem areas within Seventh-day Adventism. While I realize that some do not hold White’s visionary teachings, the reality is that many do. There are any number of things wrong with that White has taught and it is tragic that so many people place her such high esteem.

    The entire reason SDAs worship on Saturday as opposed to Sunday is wrong, in my opinion.

    Reply

  • 25. Andrea Kennedy  |  November 18, 2011 at 5:52 PM

    Groups are not saved. Individuals are saved. What are they saved from? Was Jesus named Jesus because He would save His people from their sins? What is sin? If I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, He will save me from something. What is that something? The wages of sin, right? Does He take sinning Christians home to heaven? Does Jesus only deliver from the guilt and condemnation of sin or does He also deliver from its insidious power? My Jesus saves me completely and resting on the Sabbath every week from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday in harmony with the law in the stone is so refreshing, so restoring. It is a taste of heaven. It teaches me to rest from all the works of my flesh throughout the whole week even as I rest from unnecessary physical labor on the Sabbath. When I see Jesus face to face, I will be so grateful that He fulfilled His new covenant promise in my life–that He wrote His law in my heart. Yes, I do believe that I could lose my salvation from sin if I looked at Jesus and said, “Thanks for dying for me but you know what, I don’t want your law in my heart. I’d rather not have Your Spirit living in me enabling me to obey all ten of Your sacred commandments. I rather like all my sins. I prefer my own way. And so I pluck His law from my heart and stomp all over it.” I encourage you to stop fighting against the Sabbath, stop fighting against what you do not understand. Experience the Sabbath rest for yourself. Obeying God’s law will never earn your salvation. Salvation is a free gift in Christ. However, choosing to continue to “not remember” what God has said to remember is evidence that you have not received salvation from your sins.

    Reply

    • 26. modres  |  November 18, 2011 at 6:45 PM

      Andrea, there is no argument you can present that I’ve not heard and I’m sure there is no argument I can present to you that you have not heard.

      You honestly believe resting on the Sabbath is a “taste of heaven?” Come on, get real please. I can get a taste of heaven by walking through the beautiful woods behind my house that the Lord created. I can gain a sense of His majesty by appreciating many aspects of His Creation.

      If we are going to compare resting on the Sabbath, then all we’re doing is pointing to our pride.

      Your viewpoint is sadly very archaic and legalistic, I’m afraid. The entirety of Galatians was written because there were some who were depending upon the Law to save them. You would deny that the Law saves you. You would say you are simply being obedient. That’s fine, but unfortunately, because you more than imply that salvation is FOUND within obedience to the Law, then you experience the same difficulties as those to whom the apostle Paul wrote.

      The Law He wrote on your heart has nothing to do with worshiping on a particular day. I’m also very sorry you believe you can lose your salvation. That speaks more about how you view God than anything else.

      Salvation is ETERNAL. Once you receive salvation, you are BORN AGAIN (cf. John 3). To LOSE salvation would then mean that you somehow would become UNborn again. How is that possible? Moreover, since we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit (until the day of redemption), you are also saying that YOU are stronger than God and can break that seal.

      I’m sorry for you. It is your fear of failing and sinning that motivates you, not love you may think you have for God. It is interesting to note that historically, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists are not that far apart and there is good reason for that. Founders of SDA and Jehovah’s Witnesses had many common allies.

      The larger problem of course is that you see a failure to worship on Saturday as a major sin. While you are focusing on that one, you are very likely losing sight of any and all other sins in your life. In other words, your legalism sets boundaries and you physically remain within them. Unfortunately, Satan is capable of easily moving beyond those boundaries to tempt us in ways that we are not even aware of, like lust for example.

      Jesus said that while the Law punished adulterers, those who even looked at another person with lust in their eyes was guilty of committing adultery, even though they did not join the object of their lust in a physical relationship. He further pointed out that those who WISH another was dead is considered guilty (in God’s eyes) of actually committing murder even though they may never have harmed that person.

      Do you see the point? You are stuck in the actual, physical law, but the Law of Moses was NEVER capable of changing man’s heart. You say you are glad that God placed your Law in your heart. He didn’t. All you have done is determined to follow the letter of the physical Law. For you then, if you fail to worship on Saturday through a decision to no longer do so, it is tantamount to rebelling and rejecting Jesus. For you, this means a loss of salvation. It is because of your errant belief that you fail to see that it is for freedom you have been set free. Certainly, this is not a license to sin, but you have simply accepted what your leaders have said; that failing to worship on Saturday is sin.

      You are also accusing me of not ever having received salvation and this is based on your faulty reasoning regarding what constitutes sin. You are in essence judging me; a sin of which you need to confess.

      There is nothing sacred about worshiping on Saturday and in fact, there is ample evidence that the early Christians worshiped on Sunday, to avoid problems with Jewish members of the community and to separate themselves physically from Judaism. While I realize that you do not believe this, your disbelief does not negate that truth. Interestingly enough, worshiping on Saturday, Sunday, or another day was not something that any of the apostles or writers of the NT spent any time on. The only real reference to it is from Paul who said, “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind,” (Romans 14:5). I am aware of how many SDAs interpret that statement, but the overall meaning is difficult to ignore. Paul is simply saying that if you believe it is best to worship on a Saturday, then do so. If I choose another day, then that is fine as well.

      Unfortunately, what many SDAs have done is made a hard and fast rule about it, so that it makes it impossible for people who worship on any other day to actually be saved. That is not only tragic and wrong, but it is fully judgmental based on faulty exegesis of Scripture.

      I’m really sorry you see things as you do. There’s probably no need to continue this since neither of us will be moved. My only suggestion to you would be to do your own research. Read the Bible carefully and then study the history and grammar. Check out some commentaries as well from people who have studied subjects like this. In fact, I would also suggest that you read books by people who hold opposing views.

      Thanks for writing.

• 27. ej  |  November 18, 2011 at 11:58 PM

  You keep connecting the legalism of keeping the sabbath, even if a person claims to enjoy keeping the sabbath as it is what he/she gets out of understanding the bible. SDA’s don’t believe keeping sabbath is what saves them. And one should not get condemned for not keeping one. Yes, the ten commendaments is summed up into love your God and love others, and SDA’s believe keeping the sabbath is one way to show that we love God, and it is not done out of someone forcing us that we must do it, but (for a true sabbath keeper) it is one way to enjoy salvation we’ve received already by the grace of Jesus. All true SDA’s believe that faith alone can save oneself, but why should it be a reason to be called a cult, if one insists the importance of sabbath, which existed before the time of moses, before the nation of Israel, but from the very 7th day of God’s creation. It’s just like you not commiting adultery and what not, and you said you’ve lusted over something…well so have all SDA’s-and on every sabbath we think or do things that are “sinful”. Does that mean we are breaking the commendment..yes…however, we are saved by faith and knowing that it gives us one more reason to be thankful for the sabbath for us to enjoy. (not because our leaders told us not keeping saturday is a sin like you said) While it is not right for SDA’s to condemn others, it is not right to condemn SDA’s for trying to live in an obidence in God.

  You’ve mentioned how SDA’s interpret romans 14:5 but overall message strikes your hard…Well for the most SDA’s the overall message of the bible clearly tells us the sabbath is the right day of worship and rest, and while you can come up with reason why one might worship on a different day, biblically, we do not pull out our saturday worship anywhere other than the bible. (BTW i know alot of early christians did keep sunday as you mentioned and strongly denied sabbath but there is absolutly no biblical source for their action other that political reasons)

  I understand many non-sda’s see us as a legalistic group of people, that like to condemn other christians, but they don’t represent true characteristics of our church. If you must consider a church a cult, then you must argue from our doctrines, not from some of the member’s tendensies and falso witnessing. I beliefe thare are plenty of non christians within SDA church…I also know plenty of presbyterian scholars who insist the ten commandment still stands and sunday is the rightful day of worship. I also know plenty of baptists that believe baptism without full submergion means condemnation. and I also know others who claims only one’s who speak in tongues are saved…you get my drift. If you read your replies here, most of the SDA’s are here to defend their individual faith, and correct whatever misunderstanding you might have with them, but not to say non-SDA’s will go to hell or something. I cannot say much abot mormons and JW’s as I did not study their doctrines personally, but since you said we are in common ground with them, i can say that SDA’s believe that peopel outside of our church are saved as well, of course many from the “main stream chruch” and we can join them if they are willing to come on Saturday (our church rent a lutheran church on saturday, and the lutheran paster has given us sermon many times-and we are legit mainstream sda’s anot some far off branch) or their sunday church, but we’ll keep our day “holy” becuase we are convinced that’s what Jesus would do…you interpret it as legalism, we see it as health life style in rememberance of God the creator. (BTW, you say some of our comments were legalistic, well so were some of your replys, and they were very “technical” and “subjective”-I am sure christians read the same bible but sometimes don’t see what others see-in the end it’s the personal choice of accepting Jesus as your savior, not which group you belong to)
  ps-i am not sure what you mean by we preach salvation can be lost? Are you saying if someone is once saved, then he is forever saved no matter what he does after? If so i disagree simply looking at the live of Judah or Saul. i’ve seen many people that turned away from God who were true believers at one point by Satan…he can work hard to make us throw away salvation, he even tempted Jesus!!!

  Reply

  • 28. modres  |  November 19, 2011 at 7:59 AM

    Look, we could debate this until we both run out of breath and solve nothing. I’m not interested in debating as it really serves no purpose.

    Steve Wohlberg and Doug Batchelor both believe that if a person does not worship on Saturday, they’ve lost their salvation (if they ever had it). They believe that one of the popes was the antichrist and changed the “times and seasons” by changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

    The problem with this view is myriad and as I’ve stated there is ample evidence to more than suggest that the early Christians worshiped on Sunday, not Saturday.

    It would be like saying that I must read the Bible every day from 6am to 7am or I am not fulfilling my obligation to know God through His Word. While that is not a law written in stone, the reality is, is that anything we do can become legalistic.

    If you want to worship on Saturday, that’s completely up to you, but to believe that as a Christian, it is law that you must obey is ridiculous. While Christians are obligated to follow the moral law of God, Paul makes it clear that any day we set aside for worship is fine. As I mentioned, there is a good amount of evidence to support the idea that early Christians worshiped on Sunday, not Saturday.

    You need to do what you believe in your heart you should do. I hope you are also eating a Kosher diet as well and it goes without saying that if you are male, you were circumcised for religious reasons.

    Be that as it may, if you firmly believe that salvation is by grace alone, then the so-called requirement to worship on Saturday is moot.

    Regarding your other charge that people who are saved can live anyway they want to live and remain saved is ridiculous. It’s an argument often used by people who do not believe that salvation is eternal. It denies the power of God in the individual’s life.

    People who SAY they are Christian, yet live however they want to live are in all likelihood NOT Christians at all. There are MANY individuals who profess to be Christians. Moreover, the visible church is FILLED with TARES according to Jesus’ own words. These TARES move along the same lines as the WHEAT and tend to look and even sound like Christians, yet they are not and never will be.

    Eternal salvation is eternally secure. It’s that simple. You are looking at it solely from a human perspective, completely ignoring God’s roll in the salvation process.

    You say you have seen “many people that turned away from God who were true believers at one point by Satan” and my question to you is how do you KNOW they were Christians? You were able to see their heart? Of course not. You judged their Christianity by appearances only as neither you nor I are able to see their heart. How do you know they were not TARES? That statement you made is absolutely ridiculous.

    The only people who are authentic Christians are those who remain so until the end. All others are wannabes, fakers, or TARES. You cannot be born again one moment, then unborn again the next. You cannot be sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption one day and then unsealed the next. Those who remain until the end are DESTINED to do so because Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will get us through.

    Paul and others often encouraged others to press on so as not to fall short. The reason being is that neither Paul or the other writers of the NT knew who was and who was not authentically saved either. They had to go by externals, yet the only sure way of someone ELSE knowing that someone is saved is by watching them complete the journey without falling away.

    John also talks about those who went out from them, but were not part of them. “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us,” (1 John 2:19; emphasis added). John is being wonderfully clear here. Only authentic Christians WILL continue. Those who are not will wander away. It’s a very simple concept. Surely you can understand it?

    Authentic Christians keep moving onward. Yes, they slip and backtrack at times, but they eventually get back up, confess their sin and move on. The idea that you or anyone else can determine who is and who is not an authentic Christian is laughable. You do not have that ability and the fact that you think you do speaks to the level of pride in your life.

    Reply

• 29. Mark 7:6-8  |  December 29, 2011 at 11:40 PM

  Matt 7:21; James 2:14…John 6:53; Matt 26:17-28…Matt 5:17; Luke 4:16; John 13:15; Acts 17:2… and again Matt 7:21

  If we aren’t actually supposed to follow God’s word then I don’t really see the point in reading the Bible (or for that matter even having a Bible). In fact, if all we have to do is just ‘believe’ and we’re saved then I might as well off myself now and go on to heaven.

  By the way, I’ve never actually heard of an ‘orthodox-Christian church’ that says they don’t keep the 10 commandments…not sure how many people would stay. Which is ironic. Seems to me though, that ‘orthodox Christianity’ has little to do with the Bible and more to do with good marketing schemes.

  As for SDA, I don’t know much about it, but I do think that it seems a bit odd to keep some of the laws the way it was kept in the New Testament, yet to then keep some of the laws way it was kept in the Old Testament. Same with Jehovah Witnesses. Although I’d think if you follow Jehovah and don’t believe in Christ as God then you would just follow Jehovah’s laws? But again, I don’t know much about SDA or the Witnesses.

  Anywho. Just some thoughts.

  Reply

  • 30. modres  |  December 30, 2011 at 7:15 AM

    The problem though is when it comes to following any of these laws FOR salvation, which seems to be the case for Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-day Adventists, and others.

    Salvation is a free gift. We can do nothing to earn it. Many to most would agree with that statement, but then they would also say that salvation can be lost, which in my mind is the antithesis of what Scripture teaches.

    I’m supposed to live my life for His glory. I don’t always do that and I will not know whether I did or didn’t until I stand before Him. This does NOT mean that my salvation is in question though. It simply means any rewards that might have been earned (yes, earned) are in question.

    Orthodoxy means believing the five fundamentals of the faith essentially:

    1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
    2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
    3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7;
    Hebrews 9:12-14).
    4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
    5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4;
    2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).

    When it comes to Christianity, Jesus taught that God’s moral law should be upheld and He provided many practical examples of what that looks like (e.g. loving your neighbor, loving God above all things, etc.).

    Reply

    • 31. Jeff  |  December 30, 2011 at 7:45 PM

      I disagree. The problem isn’t following God’s laws
      FOR salvation. It’s making a decision to turn ones back on God’s laws and do what our sinful nature desires with the false assumption that his grace will then cover us. IMO a person that asks for salvation is granted the gift when they confess thier sins and accepts Christ as thier Lord and Savor. Only God knows a persons heart but I would suggest that a person who does that act knowing full well they intent not to follow what God has laid out will have to explain thier actions. IMO this person has not truly excepted Christ as thier savor and/or confessed all sins. We know there has to be exceptions because thousands upon thousands have lived on our planet never hearing of Religion or they lived what they were
      Taught with conviction. IMO God will not hold us accountable for something we didn’t know or understand because he is a just and forgiving God but I’m not sure how he will handle those that learn truth and reject it. Puts God in a tough spot. As a parent when a child does a wrong unknowingly vs an outright insubordination we tend to judge accordingly. God bless all those seeking the truth and help us to remember that Christ is the answer not any one organization.

    • 32. modres  |  December 30, 2011 at 8:34 PM

      The apostle Paul would disagree with you on several fronts, all of which he explains in Romans among other epistles. Romans 1 explains that no one is without excuse. No one will be able to stand before God and say, “I didn’t know!” It’s not possible. What didn’t we know? We KNOW that God exists and that there is a moral law. Those who never heard the Word preached to them are judged under the Law. Those who heard the Word and rejected it are judged under the Law. Those who hear the Word and RECEIVE it are judged under GRACE.

      Romans 3:23 tells us that ALL have sinned and ALL have fallen short. That includes you, me, and every other person who has ever lived. The only exception that MIGHT exist is God’s deference toward babies who if they die as babies are incapable of knowing right from wrong, even though they still possess the sin nature.

      You have heard the gospel. Have you received it? If so – according to Romans 10:9-10, you are saved. It is BECAUSE you are saved that you WANT to live a life that pleases Him, though you will still fail from time to time. We never reach the point of sinless perfection in this life.

      I agree that a person who says a “sinner’s prayer” as it were, but decides he will live as he pleases and ignore God’s moral law, does not have true salvation. They are kidding themselves.

      Living with conviction does not impress God, unless we are living the TRUTH with conviction. Satan lives with conviction as do all of his minions, yet they will never be saved. Atheists die every day who have spent their lives living by their convictions. It won’t save them in the end.

      Why did God save you? Why did God save me? Whenever God saves ANYONE, it is for ONE purpose and one purpose only: to glorify Himself. That’s it in a nutshell. We like to think that we are extremely important and certainly to some extent we are but only because we were made in His image. Yet, God will not allow anyone into heaven who has never received Jesus as Savior/Lord.

      “As a parent when a child does a wrong unknowingly vs an outright insubordination we tend to judge accordingly.” Yes, but there is still some sort of judgment.

      “God bless all those seeking the truth and help us to remember that Christ is the answer not any one organization.” Absolutely, but unfortunately, some organizations plainly teach error and should be avoided.

    • 33. Jeff  |  December 31, 2011 at 12:59 PM

      I’m glad we have found common ground.

      “Absolutely, but unfortunately, some organizations plainly teach error and should be avoided.”

      Unless you can share one organization that is 100% right on everything I believe there is no such thing on this planet. So as you said it’s best to avoid the 90% or more organized religions that “plainly teach error” and\or ignore something so blatant as what day is Sabbath. If a group can’t figure out something so simple and has to come up with excuse after excuse on why they honor the wrong day then it’s hard to believe they are right on some more challenging topics. Let’s as you said go to a place of rest and look deep within our heart and ask which group of people is honoring the most basic fundamental principles? Those in your so called “cults”that try to obey the Ten Commandents or the majority that try to obey 9 and explain away the other 1?

      Kind of simple really God ask us to come visit with him at a certain date and time each week. We decide it doesn’t work for us and show up at another time. Who does that? Do we show up for a wedding a day late? Do we go to the airport a day late and expect to catch a flight. Go to see our favorite ball team at a time or day that fits our schedule other then the scheduled match? No.

      God says eat of any tree but this one and we justify we know best and do it anyway. God says keep this day Holy and we justify we know best and disobey anyway.

      Maybe the church I attend is wrong on some issues thats up for debate but I know they are right on this simple one and I’m “convicted” by it.

      God bless you as you continue to spread his word and continue searching for Gods instructions in your life.

    • 34. modres  |  December 31, 2011 at 2:47 PM

      I said “some” but you for some reason think I MEANT 90%. It doesn’t equate.

      Whether you are a Seventh-day Adventist or not, you obviously believe that worshiping God on the Sabbath is a requirement. I would fully disagree with you because Paul clarifies this for us when he states that one person chooses one day to honor the Lord while another person chooses another day. Still someone else sees every day as the “Lord’s” day (cf. Romans 14:5). I’m quite sure you’re familiar with that and I think I already know what your response to that would be.

      Jeff, I’m pretty sure we do not agree on the Sabbath issue. You could just as easily “observe” the Sabbath (Saturday) with your heart not in it and all you’ve done is something outward. Someone else can worship God on another day with their heart completely in it. Yet, your position is that they would not truly be honoring God because it’s not actually the Sabbath.

      Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and His disciples “worked” on the Sabbath. He did not rebuke them, but the religious leaders.

      Debating is fruitless, Jeff. We could go back and forth for eons and prove nothing. You’re already convinced in your mind as I am in mine.

      You said, “Kind of simple really God ask us to come visit with him at a certain date and time each week.”

      Jeff, I commune with God EVERY day. I worship Him every day. I fellowship with other believers on Sunday.

      I’m sure you’ve never killed anyone. Yet, have you ever been angry enough with someone to want them dead? Have you ever lusted after a woman in your heart? If you’ve done these things, you have murdered or committed adultery. Just because you dutifully choose one day – Saturday – to worship does not mean you are following His will. It may very well mean that you are being thoroughly legalistic. This is what happens when people focus on the Law.

• 35. Augustin bisiw  |  April 22, 2012 at 12:49 PM

  Seventh-day adventist church is the only true church. We are bound to obey the precepts of God (all 10 commandments, health laws). The book of daniel & revelation gave a specific time the true followers of God will be reveald at the later days. The emerging of the advent movement fit this prophecy. Eventhough, many churches arose from this movement, the bible gave an important clue to identify the true group–they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of jesus. (spirit of prophecy) The SDA truely fit all these things.
  To learn more of the adventist church and also the mark &number (666) of the beast, contact any local adventist congregation.
  May YHWH bless you for responding
  PS: contact them to learn why there are many churches and religion.

  Reply

  • 36. modres  |  April 23, 2012 at 12:30 PM

    Hi Augustin,

    I’m not going to take the time to debate you, but surely you are aware of how many would disagree with your assessments regarding SDA being the “only true church.”

    Besides White’s alleged plagiarism, her association with Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower), there are great many problems with the doctrines taught within the SDA group when compared with orthodox Christianity.

    It always amazes me when a group steps up to announce that they are the actual true church. Doesn’t matter whether it’s Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the SDA or someone else entirely, denominations are one thing. Often people branch off into one denomination or another not over major doctrinal issues, but normally over issues of worship, or baptism, or something else. Anyone outside of orthodoxy is not considered a denomination, but a cult.

    Whether Walter Martin believed SDA to be a cult, there are a good many arguments in favor of applying that label to your group unfortunately.

    A plethora of books have been written denouncing White’s doctrinal viewpoints, none of which I have time or space to go into here. I wish you would do your own independent research to see what you come up with and by that I don’t mean simply reading what others within your group say about those who have written and/or spoken against it. I’m talking about reading the books of those who disagree with your view based on their understanding of the Bible and biblical truth.

    In the end, if you believe fully that everyone except Seventh-Day Adventists are wrong, then there is nothing that can be stated to change your viewpoint. The absurdity of such a position speaks for itself. Again, denominational differences are one thing, but because someone is a Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc., does not mean that they are not Christian. It often merely means that there is a difference in understanding the various aspects of Christianity in the non-essentials.

    No one would say (that I’m aware) that the Baptists represent the true Church. Which denomination of Baptist, GARBC, American Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, Independent Baptist, or what? These differences exist largely due to the fact that some believe that a local church should be relatively autonomous and not governed by an association or body.

    The one thing that makes a Christian an authentic Christian or not is their faith in Jesus Christ.

    You base at least part of your salvation on following the Ten Commandments, but even there you’re not getting it right. There are 613 total laws, not simply ten. If you are going to follow any portion of the law, then as Paul tells the Galatians, you are required to follow all of it. While many of the 613 laws were for the priests/Levites specifically, there are plenty leftover that the average individual was required to follow. You have chosen the ten mains one and have ignored the other 603. You can’t do that.

    This is exactly why the ENTIRETY of the law was summed up in two commandments; love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

    I pray you find the truth one day. I pray He opens your eyes. I pray you learn the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

    When it all comes down to it (and you said it yourelf), you wind up working FOR your salvation. You cannot work for something that is fully free. Yes, we are obligated to live a life of holiness AFTER we become saved, but failing to do so does not somehow cancel my salvation.

    I’m sorry you believe your works are part of the process when God says they are filthy rags.

    Reply

• 37. Gary R  |  May 8, 2012 at 11:37 AM

  With love to you all. Acts 15: 5, 10-11, 28-29. A sect of the Pharisee believed That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Peter said, “Now therefore why temp ye God, to put a yoke up the neck of the dicciples, which niether our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace fo the Lord Jeshus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 28 For it seem good to hte Holy Ghost, and to us , to lay upon you no other burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, he shall do well.
  Gal 5:3-4 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto ;you, whosoever of you ar justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.
  Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then bretheren, we are not childeren of the bondwoman, but of the free.
  See Romans 7:1-6 also about dead to the law by the body of Christ.
  Read all of Galatians several times, out loud. Speak the word to yourself as Paul is stern with the Galatians. Especially chapter 3.
  We obey the law for our love for Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost. We could not do it before Christ, by keeping the Law. Many of the Jews wanted to kill Paul for teaching Christ, saved by faith and grace. I pray you all come to know the real knowledge of the truth, and saving faith and grace of Jesus Christ. If you love your wife, you will be good to her, if you love your neighbor, you won’t steal from him. If you ;love Jesus, you will seek to please him. Let’s love God first with all our heart and love our neighbor as ourselves, and we fulfill the whole law. With Love, Gary R

  Reply

  • 38. modres  |  May 8, 2012 at 2:37 PM

    I’m not really sure what it is you’re trying to say, Gary as your comments can be taken several ways.

    Anyone can quote Scripture and many do, but that doesn’t prove much.

    Yes, Paul was very stern with the Galatians because they were considering becoming circumcised and there was absolutely no need for it. He was careful to remind them that if they put themselves deliberately UNDER one aspect of the law (circumcision) they would be obligated to follow ALL of it.

    Reply

• 39. Gary R  |  May 11, 2012 at 8:35 AM

  Sorry about my spelling on my post on May 7th. I even mis spelled Jesus. The point I was trying to make was that, Paul was trying to keep the Galatians from going back under the law, after having been saved by grace. I think many christians back then were trying to mix grace with the law. Playing both sides of the fence. Playing it safe. Many in the early church wanted the Christians to be under the old law too. doesn’t that make Christs death for nothing? Paul made it clear that the New Christians don’t need to keep the law. Acts chapter 15 makes is real clear. Why would we think that we need to keep the law. Doesn’t Paul say that whoremongers, liars, thieves, murderers, homosexuals, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Why doesn’t mention the Sabbath? You can keep the ten commandments and still be far from salvation. Jesus said if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you commit adultry, or if you hate a man you are a murderer. We need the grace of God, and be led by the Holy Spirit. The law was given to show us our need for a savior, a schoomaster to lead us to Christ. Many Christians don’t drink, smoke, commit adultry, but they can be deceived, if they get hung up on a couple verses. A good test is, What do others say about you? Are you guilty of loving others more than yourself? Do you judge others? I know that we are persecuted for our beliefs, but we should have fruit in our lives. I guess what I’m trying to say is our love showing?

  Gary R

  Reply

• 40. Susan  |  May 14, 2012 at 1:32 AM

  I was thinking that as many of the posters are Seventh-day Adventists, I would like to share with you a reminder. If you are not an Adventist and do not believe in the inspiration of Ellen White, you are free to disregard this post.

  “Paul knew that the laborer for God must be wise enough to see the design of the enemy, and refuse to be misled or diverted. The conversion of souls must be the burden of his work; he must preach the word of God, but *avoid controversy.*
  “‘Study to show thyself approved unto God,’ he wrote, ‘a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.’ [2 Timothy 2:15, 16.]
  “The ministers of Christ today are in the same danger. Satan is constantly at work to divert the mind into wrong channels, so that the truth may lose its force upon the heart. And unless ministers and people practice the truth and are sanctified by it, they will allow speculation regarding questions of no vital importance to occupy the mind. This will lead to caviling and strife; for countless points of difference will arise.” Gospel Workers, pp. 311-312

  I believe that in taking part in the debate going on here, we are making unwise use of our time, arguing points with people who will maintain their own opinions about us and our doctrines regardless of what we might say or do. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to change hearts and touch lives. Trying to prove ourselves to those to whom we hold no accountability is useless and detrimental to our characters. A spirit of contention is developed, and it is not to the glory of God or the honor of His name.

  Live to prove yourself to God, not to mankind. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

  Reply

  • 41. modres  |  May 14, 2012 at 7:06 AM

    Thanks for your thoughts, Susan.

    There is a huge problem with your understanding of what constitutes actual “controversy” as outlined by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:23. He NEVER meant that salvation itself should not be discussed, scrutinized, or even debated to an extent. Paul spent his entire life after Acts 9 on spreading the gospel, which as a by-product, created controversy wherever he went! According to you then, he should have avoided many situations and episodes in his life that resulted in controversy solely because of his desire to see people come to knowledge of true salvation. Surely, you understand that the situation that developed in Ephesus was due to Paul’s desire for people to be truly saved (as just one example)? Silversmith Demetrius responded to Paul’s efforts to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ by attempting to create problems for Paul. He was partially successful. Satan used Demetrius to stand against Paul and the success that the Lord had in bringing people out of paganism into true salvation due to Paul’s efforts. Wherever true salvation is preached there is Satan doing his best to create controversy as he attempts to pull people away from that truth and to shut that open door.

    Preaching the truth in love often prompts Satan’s response to that truth, which can create controversy. The New Testament (and even the Old) is filled with examples of events that occurred because people taught the truth and Satan attempted to stand against it.

    I write what I write here because I want people to come to a true saving knowledge of Christ and to receive the only salvation that is available through the gospel of Jesus. I do not believe that at its heart, Seventh-day Adventism (along with Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses and numerous others) has or promulgates the truth regarding true, biblical salvation. I believe that works are added to the situation by these organizations and many who have responded to this article have simply proven me to be correct because of their additions to the requirement of faith (going to church only on Saturday, which translates to receiving the mark of the beast when going to church on Sunday, etc.).

    It is due to the teachings of people like Ellen G. White (or Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell) that gullible people become sidetracked and actually diverted AWAY from authentic salvation toward a type of “salvation” that is artificially created by man’s arguments. In the end, it is no salvation at all.

    Controversy for the sake of controversy is wrong. When he says we should avoid controversy, Paul is clearly referring to arguments that deal with the non-essentials of the faith as ones that should be avoided. He is NOT referring to avoiding conversations that deal with the actual essentials of the faith, with salvation being the most important of them. Had that been the case, he never would have preached the gospel! Whenever the truth is preached, Satan will create controversy. He did it in the life of Jesus. He did it in the life of Paul and he does it wherever and whenever the truth of salvation is preached.

    I believe that because of the fact that every person is only one breath away from eternity, it is absolutely imperative that they KNOW what they believe about Jesus Christ and His salvation. Moreover, it is equally imperative that they know they HAVE authentic salvation. People are worth saving and to fully understand the truth of salvation is worth discussing and even worth debating. It stands to reason that controversy over truth will follow whenever the true gospel is preached because that is what Satan does.

    I fully believe that because of the origins of much of White’s doctrine, her connections with people like Charles Taze Russell, and the events that created her rise to fame within Seventh-day Adventism (e.g. The Great Disappointment), many of her teachings are patently false. Because they are false, that makes her a false prophet and because of it, I believe many people are being misled…including you.

    No one answers to me. No one is accountable to me. However, we are all accountable to God and the most important thing we can do in this life is to embrace the full truth of the gospel of Jesus so that when we stand before Him, we will not be ashamed or condemned at having believed something erroneous about salvation.

    Like Ezekiel, if I do not tell others about the truth of Jesus and His salvation, I will be held accountable before God for that failed mission. I must tell them, whether they listen or not and it is my prayer that God, through the Holy Spirit, will open people’s eyes to the truth so that they will embrace that truth and become authentically saved.

    My prayers are with you.

    Reply

    • 42. Susan  |  May 14, 2012 at 6:32 PM

      I am sorry if I have misjudged your conversations with other posters; I am sensitive even to mild conflict, so if you feel that my reminder was unneeded, I understand. I hope it will serve as a bulwark against future controversy, though, and I thank you for having taken pains to avoid argument with others. What I had more in mind was the kind of tense, defensive discussion so many people seem to engage in over the smallest things. I agree that in spreading the gospel there will be times when we will need to address certain issues without beating around the bush.

      If I have once again mistaken your meaning, be patient, but our beliefs regarding salvation are not the way you see them. I know all too well that some people believe that we base salvation on works, but this is not the case. I am no more inherently saved by keeping the Sabbath than you are condemned for doing what you honestly believe is right in worshiping on Sunday. I don’t keep Sabbath in order to be saved; I keep it as an expression of love for Jesus, and respect for His law. (John 14:15)

      Most of your reply to my initial post I would unashamedly repeat in my own church, as it gives solid reason to share the Word as it is. However, I think I sense some misunderstandings about us in the third to last paragraph. The Seventh-day Adventist church didn’t start until some time after the Great Disappointment, when those who gave up hope had already turned away from the Advent movement (which is what William Miller began with his discoveries about Daniel’s prophecies). Only a handful of believers continued to study the Bible to see where they had gone wrong. Among those were Ellen Harmon, James White, Joseph Bates, and others important to the foundation of our church. At first, Ellen was actually strongly doubted mainly because she was a woman and the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. that the Advent people were made up of did not believe in visions from God. They rejected the idea because it was different. However, it became increasingly clear that what she was seeing was not from the Devil or contrary to the Bible.

      I know there is a lot of room for misjudgment and misquotation of Mrs. White’s writings, just from the fact that they were written in the mid-1800s to early 1900s. Taken out of context, it is harder to understand what she means by certain statements. When her writings are used against her, you must take what people say with a grain of salt. Replaced into context, or compared to other clarifying statements, they make perfect sense, but not alone or paraphrased into an entirely different meaning. If people want an explanation for our doctrines or actions, it would truly be best for them to simply ask us instead of being willing to believe anything others choose to repeat.

      Also, I looked up her connection with Charles Taze Russell, and have not so far been able to deduce anything but that he was exposed to Advent beliefs, especially with regard to Nelson H. Barbour, who never was a Seventh-day Adventist as some imply. The ideas that they wrote about together are not even close to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs. If you could, would you please give me some links to evidence that Ellen White was in close association with Charles Russell? I would really appreciate it. This is something I want to find out about for myself before I say any more in this particular area than I have already shared with you. Thank you for your prayers!

    • 43. modres  |  May 15, 2012 at 6:58 AM

      It is exceedingly sad that you believe as you believe. Moreover, your insincerity is clearly showing, though no doubt, you believe that you have come across as someone who really wants to know (“This is something I want to find out about for myself before I say any more in this particular area than I have already shared with you.”)

      Do you think I’m an idiot, Susan? Apparently…

      You said, “If people want an explanation for our doctrines or actions, it would truly be best for them to simply ask us instead of being willing to believe anything others choose to repeat.”

      All cult members use that argument. The truth of the matter is that there are many books written by ex-SDA members. Beyond this, it is extremely EASY to obtain books written by Ellen G. White and others high up in the SDA organization that clearly explain the beliefs of SDA. I can do and have done my own research. It’s a no-brainer. I have also talked with numerous SDA adherents and I’ve lost count how many times I’ve been told that I am going to hell because I worship on Sundays, or SDA is the “true” Church, etc. Every cult makes this claim.

      The real tragedy is what SDA people willingly and knowingly keep from saying. The deceptive nature of SDA becomes apparent to those who can think and reason for themselves, when we understand the actual writings and testimony of White and others within SDA.

      I really wish I had the time to enter into debate with you, but I don’t. The information you seek is out there for anyone who truly wants to know. Unfortunately, you strike me as being sufficiently INSINCERE in your requests.

      It amazes me that people like yourself spend so much time trying to prove the merits of SDA theology – what you call your “church,” – and the veracity of Ellen G. White, when in point of fact, for anyone who is serious about taking on the issue, the holes in that theology become extremely evident except to folks who have been thoroughly indoctrinated and have already decided that Ellen G. White is a true prophet. According to folks like yourself, there is never anything anti-biblical about her beliefs and teachings, and in effect, the SDA cult is the true Church.

      It is tragic, Susan. There is actually LITTLE room for misjudgment and misquotation of White’s writings. They speak for themselves and the ramifications of her teachings are in stark contrast to the truth of Scripture at many points. Moreover, there is very good evidence that she was a plagiarist.

      It appears as though you are more interested in defending White than actually seeking truth. I am interested in pointing out the truth about Seventh-day Adventism and other cults.

      To that end, this is only one page that points out truth regarding what Ellen G. White taught and official positions of the SDA cult:
      http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/sda_facts.html

      The above page is excellent for its presentation on the facts regarding what SDAs believe (and I’m talking about the organization itself) about
      – Doctrine of Christ
      – Doctrine of Salvation
      – False Prophecies
      – Consulting the Dead

      and more.

      If you are truly interested in determining the truth Susan, then I would suggest that you avail yourself of the above information.

      I want to thank you for your comments, but we can go no further unless/until you are willing/able to see the fallacies within SDA. Until the Lord opens your eyes, that won’t be happening and because of that, any discussion we might enter into here would be a massive waste of my time.

      My prayers are for your eyes to be open to the truth. Only God can make that happen. We could discuss/debate for eons and unless you are willing to see the truth by God’s grace, all we will be doing is discussing/debating. I won’t fall into that trap of “endless controversies.” The truth is there. Are you willing to see it?

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

Enter your comment here...

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

Email (required) (Address never made public)

Name (required)

Website

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. ( Log Out / Change )

You are commenting using your Twitter account. ( Log Out / Change )

You are commenting using your Facebook account. ( Log Out / Change )

Cancel

Connecting to %s

Notify me of follow-up comments via email.

Notify me of new posts via email.

Trackback this post  |  Subscribe to the comments via RSS Feed