Could the Rapture Cause the Coming World Collapse?

March 16, 2011 at 5:05 PM 24 comments

This question has been brought up before by numerous individuals and most recently I read a blog by Terry James of Rapture Ready who indicated his belief that the Rapture is the very thing that will cause the coming worldwide collapse.  Is he right?  Of course, we do not know until or unless the Rapture occurs, but I tend to agree with him.

If there is one event that would cause worldwide confusion and catastrophe, it is the Rapture.  If you consider how many (authentic) Christians live on this planet at this time, the number is certainly into the millions.  Yes, there are a good deal more than that who attend some type of church, but attending church does not equate to being an authentic Christian.  I’m speaking of actual authentic Christians, part of the invisible Church, or the Bride of Christ.

Now consider a world in which those same millions of authentic Christians vanished…instantly.  It is difficult to imagine because of the size and the result of such an auspicious event.  In an micro-second, all the authentic Christians – driving cars, trucks, flying planes, working machinery, adding numbers in their accounting offices, controlling air traffic, or something else entirely – would be gone.  Can you imagine the resultant pandemonium?

If we simply take the time to imagine how traffic alone would be affected with millions of drivers gone, the picture is not pretty.  The question to ask then is would the fact of millions of people vanishing in the same instant create a world that would be pushed to the brink of collapse?  I have no doubt that the world would change forever and the repercussions of that kind of chaotic change would cause the bottom to fall out of the world’s economic, political, and social strata.

We tend to think in increments.  The world will progressively get worse until – boom – a collapse happens after things reach the breaking point.  (Some people like to believe that the world is getting incrementally better.  I do not share that optimism because Scripture does not share it).  That is certainly one possible scenario, but when I consider Scripture, it seems to me that if in one instant millions disappear, the result of that would be far more reaching than simply economics or politics.

Imagine a world where millions disappear instantly and at the same time.  How would that event affect the psyche of people all over the world (except possibly North Korea, where they may never hear about it!)?  Can you imagine the fear that would grip the world?  It would be palpable.  People’s hearts would be failing them because of that fear.  Would they think it was an alien attack, or something else?  There would be no way for them to know for certain.  Those who remained after the event who had at least some experience in church might be aware of the possibilities related to the event if the church they attended ever taught on the subject.

New Age proponents might react to the event with an emotional high because for the longest time, they have believed that it will be in fact, aliens who come to take the malcontents (Christians) off the planet in order to allow the planet to finally evolve to its next spiritual level.  This message has been channeled throughout the New Age world for decades.

For the average person in which New Age thought meant little to nothing, it would take a good deal of convincing to assuage their fears that the results of the recent Rapture event was actually a good thing.  I really do not think we can properly understand the tremendous impact that this world would feel from an event like the Rapture.  In fact, it is truly mind-boggling to think that in less than an instant, millions of people will simply be gone.  That would freak anyone out who did not understand what had just occurred!

Moments after the event, the true apocalyptic effect would begin to sink in, rippling throughout the world.  Life would come to a complete standstill.  People would be wondering not only what happened, but what happens next.

This is where the collapse would occur.  One moment, things are seemingly contained, yet spiralling downward, and the next moment, it has all irreversibly changed, affected by the absence of millions who did normal, every day jobs in society.  They are gone and in their absence, fear, distress, and economic collapse quickly fills the void.

Think about this: how would it be possible for the world to continue as is without missing a beat after the Rapture?  It would not be possible.  Nothing would remain the same.  Take the time to consider the full ramifications of a mind-boggling event like the Rapture.  What part of society or the world would it leave untouched?  I cannot think of anything or anywhere that would not be affected by it.  Can you?

If we look only at the recent events in Japan, certainly our hearts go out to these people.  Many Christian organizations are also involved in getting aid to them as well.  The earthquake directly affected the island of Japan as did the resultant tsunami as well.  Thousands of lives have been lost and more are expected.  Quakes and aftershocks are still being felt.  Clean-up will take months if not years.  Japan may never be the same and clean-up may never be complete.

On top of all this, the radiation leaks from the damaged nuclear power plant in Japan is real and making their way throughout other parts of the globe via the jet stream.  Will the nuclear reactors be successfully shut down before things worsen?  It’s doubtful, but workers are desperately trying.

The economies of other nations as well as Japan of course, are and will be affected over the coming months because of this double tragedy in Japan.  Japan’s economy was already struggling and it will take a good deal to keep it afloat.  We will likely see price increases and shortages in food and technology, as well as other areas, like automobiles and computer parts.

What has happened in Japan did not happen worldwide, though effects of the disaster are being felt throughout the globe.  We really do not know how bad it will get.  I believe in all the confusion and human misery, there will be some who swoop in to take advantage of the situation, artificially raising prices because of it, just like what occurred with Enron and California a number of years ago.  Will gas prices continue to rise?  I’m sure of it.

However, consider the situation immediately after the Rapture and how the absence of all authentic Christians would drastically effect the entire world.  It is not pretty to think about, but it could also be the impetus needed for the leaders of this world to realize their goal of a one-world government.

As tragic as the situation in Japan is now, a worldwide event like the Rapture will make the Japan tragedy look like child’s play.  People driving cars, flying planes, and doing other things will simply not be there in the next instant.

I’ve heard from folks who believe that when the Rapture occurs, since God has designed it, He will ensure that all planes are on the ground and not in the air, so that they will not become missiles of death.  I think it is a bit naive and even absurd to believe that at the exact moment of the Rapture, up to 5,000 planes worldwide that would normally be in the air are all on the ground.  I also believe that the same is true of cars, trucks, motorcycles, and boats.  The world will not stop just prior to the Rapture.

The Rapture will add tremendously to the chaos of the earth dwellers.  It will help create the necessary drama in which Antichrist eventually comes to the power.  If by chance, that disorder occurs prior to the Rapture, then obviously, the Rapture will succeed in making it worse.

We have seen a tremendous increase in earthquake activity.  Many prefer to believe that the world is simply going through its normal cycles.  Though I’m not a scientist, I would disagree.  I believe that we are seeing the birth pangs in full force, escalating to the end just before the beginning of the Tribulation.

During Japan’s recent earthquake and tsunami, I have to admit that it was unnerving to see the images and videos, because I had never seen a tsunami quite like that one, caught on video.  Beyond that, I had not seen such a ferocious-looking whirlpool offshore either.

As we watch the videos of the event and its aftermath, one cannot help being overcome with compassion.  These people need help.  They need aid including food, water, shelter.  They need to regain normalcy.  Of course, they need Jesus.

I saw a photo in the local newspaper that showed a group of Japanese people, cooking over a makeshift BBQ.  All around them were piles of rubble.  The article stated that in Ishijnomaki in Miyagi, roughly “440,000 people were living in makeshift shelters or evacuation centers.  The confirmed death toll was 3,676 on Tuesday with 7,558 more missing, but those numbers were thought to be understated.” [1]

It is difficult to imagine that type of devastation and death.  Moreover, it is also hard to think about losing my home to some type of natural disaster and having to depend upon handouts from others.  I’m not sure that is pride speaking, but simply an emotional reaction to going from the comfort of my home one day, to living out in the street making use of what is available the next.  That has to be so disorienting and disconcerting!  Imagine the deep sense of loss that the people of Japan are now experiencing.

As bad as these situations are for the people of Japan, it will be far worse when the Rapture occurs, leaving behind plenty of destruction in its wake.  While the destruction will not be caused by a natural disaster, a disaster it will be nonetheless.

Frankly, I can think of nothing short of the Rapture that would bring the entire world to its knees.  Something as large as the Rapture would affect the entire globe all at once.  It would bring immediate chaos.  It would also force all people remaining to come together as one in order to support one another, reclaim what was left, and move ahead to rebuild a new world order from the chaos of the old.

What is happening in Japan now is merely a mini-movie of destruction and chaos that the earth will experience on a worldwide scale as a result of the Rapture.  For those taken in the Rapture, it will be welcomed.  For those who remain on this planet, it will truly usher in a chaos that this world has never experienced before.  The worst part of it is that the bedlam left in the wake of the Rapture will simply be the beginning of greater turmoil and judgments that this world will see and experience.

This all brings me back to how I can prepare for the coming shock waves of food shortages, increased prices and all the rest.  As I have mentioned previously, we are stocking up on food, buying more here and there.  We also just purchased a metal wood-burning chimneas for our patio.  This one has a spark-arresting screen all the way around and on top and even includes a grill for cooking.  There may well be a time when propane is so expensive that it will be tough to justify the expense.  Having wood on hand will allow us to cook whenever we need to do so.

I really do not wish to be caught in dire straights.  I believe I have an obligation to prepare for what’s coming since I do not know how long it will be before I’m gone.  We spend so much time worrying about a retirement account (which is a good thing), but then ignore the possibility that food may become so expensive that buying it will be the greatest luxury around!

I truly believe that what the world is now experiencing is not as bad as it will get.  As authentic Christians, we need to be not only prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks about the hope that we have, but we need to do what we can to prepare for the coming problems of the near-future.

[1] Sacramento Bee, March 16th, 2011

Entry filed under: 9/11, alienology, Atheism and religion, Barack Hussein Obama, Barry Sotero, Communism, Demonic, dispensationalism, Eastern Mysticism, emergent church, Gun Control, Islam, Islamofascism, israel, Judaism, Life in America, new age movement, Posttribulational Rapture, Pretribulational Rapture, Radical Islam, rapture, Religious - Christian - End Times, Religious - Christian - Prophecy, Religious - Christian - Theology, salvation, Satanism, second coming, Sharia Law, Socialism, temple mount, ufology. Tags: , .

Defunding NPR and Mr. Obama’s Views Son of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef Speaks On Terrorism

24 Comments

  • 1. ICA  |  October 11, 2011 at 4:09 PM

    Nathan, I enjoy a good question, and the question you have asked is an excellent one.

    Due to the Semitic style of apocalyptic literature employed by John, in addition to many of the specific details that John gives us all throughout Revelation, I believe that the seals, trumpets and vials are not sequential one after the other, but are rather lateral events or judgments whereby the seventh of each all end right around the same time in the eschaton — immediately after the tribulation. This is a view that is supported by many teachers and theologians. Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, for example, which is considered by many to be the standard conservative-evangelical work, write in their commentary that “the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, are not consecutive, but parallel, and ending in the same consummation. They present the unfolding of God’s plans for bringing about the grand end under three different aspects, mutually complementing each other.”

    William Arnold III writes that “Although I do not see a strict chronology, I do see a literary flow of the book of Revelation (characters are usually introduced into the story before they are discussed, such as the 144,000 in chapter 7 and the great harlot in chapter 17). This order may seem strange to us, but it is not foreign to other passages in the Bible and fits very well with the Semitic style of the book. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus describes the first 3 ½ years (beginning of sorrows) followed by the second 3 ½ years (Tribulation) and finishes with the coming of the end (Matthew 24:4-14). Then he returns to discuss the midpoint in verse 15 and the second 3 ½ year period again in verse 21. This is similar to the story of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. Moses tells the whole story and then returns to expound on the creation of man in more detail. This is how I understand the seals, trumpets, and vials. They are increasingly more telescopic of events leading up to the end.

    Rhett Totten, MDiv, writes, “Some may find it confusing that after this seventh trumpet, John further describes tribulational events in Revelation, but there is a very good explanation. In his book, The Church and the Tribulation, (Zondervan, (c)1973), Robert Gundry brings out that in all three series, the Seals (Rev.6), Trumpets (Rev.8-11), and Bowls of Wrath (Rev.16), the seventh item in each series occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. Gundry points out that this arrangement is favored by the ‘Semitic style of Revelation …according to which the seals, trumpets, and bowls will find somewhat concurrent fulfillment.’ Also, the fact that later descriptions ‘add more detail is a well-recognized feature of narratival style in Semitic literature’ (Gundry, p.75)”.

    Now I may not agree with everything that these teachers contend, but I do believe that they are 100% correct in this regard. Otherwise, if we wish to assert that the seals, trumpets and vials are consecutive, we’re forced to conclude that there are two First Resurrections, that the sun and moon and stars darken twice, that the islands and mountains are removed twice, that the sky recedes as a scroll and is taken away twice, among many other things. In fact, if you compare the trumpets and vials together side by side, you’ll begin to see a pattern that begins to present the trumpets and vials as two sides of the same coin whereby the trumpets are the cause, and the vials are the effect. It’s a fascinating study, imho.

    Hope this helps, blessings …

    • 2. modres  |  October 12, 2011 at 5:09 AM

      I’m going to ask that any further comments on the Rapture be made at your site, Mitchell: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/

      I don’t have the time to respond to what I believe to be your error here and because of that, I do not want people to think that there is no response. For everyone you’ve quoted, there are others who would disagree with you.

      William Arnold III is devout in his efforts to attack the PreTrib position. Rhett Totten has this to say: “Concerning the “rapture,” intelligent and sincere Bible students disagree whether it will occur before (pre-), in the middle (mid-), or after (post-) the tribulation period –but regardless, it is not such a crucial teaching that it is worth disrupting fellowship between Christians over it. The chief task given to the Church, is to evangelize the lost world (who couldn’t care less about the placement or timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation). –But this issue is still quite important, so that believers know what to expect and what to hope for, as we look forward to Christ’s return.”

      Gundry is a Posttribulationist. There are plenty of other individuals with opposing viewpoints you could have quoted from like Ryrie, Walvoord, and others, but you seem not to necessarily want to do so because they do not fall in line with your own reasoning regarding the Rapture.

      Whether a person believes in the PreTrib, MidTrib, Posttrib, or no Trib Rapture is absolutely non-essential to the basic truth of Christianity. Issues like these are not nearly as important as knowing that you are saved, knowing that Jesus is your Lord, and knowing that evangelizing the lost far outweighs any debate over Eschatology.

      So, we’re done here. Thanks for understanding folks.

  • 3. Nathan  |  October 11, 2011 at 11:06 AM

    I agree, this is one of the most interesting discussions I have seen in a long time. I also hope it doesn’t stop guys, I am actually learning stuff.

    To ICA, I have a question about this idea that the trumpets in Revelation are what Paul was speaking about. You make what seems to be a good scripture analysis but I think there is a serious problem with that position because you believe that the rapture is posttrib, but if it happens at the 7th trumpet in Revelation then this can’t be posttrib because the vials still have to be poured out after the trumpets. That would put the rapture more like midtrib, right? I am very curious to know how you would answer this problem.

    modres if ICA does respond, maybe he won’t, but if so please approve it. I would like to know how he gets around this problem, if he does at all.

  • 4. Matthew  |  October 10, 2011 at 6:01 PM

    Fascinating discussion gentlemen. I hope you don’t end it here I am learning a lot! I agree with modres on a lot but ICA (Mitchell?) raises a lot of good points to think about too.

  • 5. ICA  |  October 7, 2011 at 4:28 PM

    Hi modres, thank you for your reply. When I say that the understanding that I’ve shared is new to me, I say that because for over 20 years I also held to a pre-trib understanding. It has only been for the last 10 years or so that over time I’ve come to a post-trib understanding instead, and my view of Revelation 10 and the seventh and last trump is one that I’ve held to now for over a year, maybe two.

    As for Tim Warner and what he believes, there is much that I agree with him on, and there is also much that I do not agree with him on as well. In fact, there is much that I agree with you on as well (we see eye-to-eye on the essentials I am sure), though on some other things I would tend to see it differently. What I try to do, no matter what the teaching or doctrine or official position of even my own church or denomination, is to test all things in light of Scripture and, at the end of the day, keep the meat and spit out the bones, as they say.

    As for the whole question about eternal security, to me it really isn’t a topic that I tend to be concerned with. I am born again and put my complete faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and in Him alone. That’s what matters to me, and the question is a non-essential doctrine in my opinion that the Body of Christ can discuss vigorously, but not one that the Body need divide over. I do understand however the position that you’ve laid out above, and there are many valid points to it.

    The reason why I believe that a Christian’s salvation is ‘eternally secure’ if they remain in Christ only is because Scripture seems to say that a believer can, of their own free will, still fall away from the faith. Galatians tells us about those who left the faith of Christ, and it tells us what happens:

    Gal 5:4, “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

    You and I both agree that everyone who is saved by grace has their name written in the Book of Life. In my opinion, those whom Paul refers to could not have fallen from grace if they were not saved by grace to begin with. They did not endure in the faith. They did not overcome the temptation to revert back to the old law (cf Gal 5:8). In doing so they were no longer covered by His blood, and their garments have been defiled. At one time they were saved by grace when they believed, but in leaving Christ they lost their salvation as a consequence, for grace cannot save when there is no longer faith. They would be among those who “believe for awhile”, but later fell away (Luke 8:13).

    In my view, I’ve had to ask why is the possibility of apostasy so very evident in Scripture, especially Hebrews, and why are there are several warnings regarding this? For example, a warning against drifting (Heb 2:1-4), a warning against departing (Heb 3:12-14), a warning against disobedience (Heb 4:11), and a warning against dullness, leading to apostasy (Heb 5:11-6:6). The apostles knew very well what Jesus meant when He said, “Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.” (John 15:6). Indeed, but Jesus declares “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Rev 3:5). If this verse is true, then the inverse is also true: “He who does not overcome shall not be clothed in white garments, and I WILL blot out his name from the Book of Life.”

    Hebrews 10:26-31 says that, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the Apostle Paul seems to be referring to someone who was at one time sanctified by the blood of Christ, or in other words, it is referring to someone who was saved at one time (sanctified “hagiazō”) — past tense.

    1 Cor 1:21-23, “This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. BUT you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed by God to proclaim it.” (NLT)

    To me, the verses above are so straight-forward and direct that they speak for themselves, in my humble opinion.

    As you’ve said above though, we have our own views on this, as well as rapture timing, and that’s ok. I still call you my brother in Christ regardless.

    This will be my last post, I respect your decision and your view and won’t press the discussion to continue any further, but I do thank you for the brief interaction.

    God bless you, and I wish you all the best with your studies and future books.

    In Christ,

    Mitchell

    • 6. modres  |  October 8, 2011 at 6:49 AM

      And again, something that you have believed for TEN years is NOT new, Mitchell, no matter how you cut it.

      Regarding eternal security, you believe – like Tim Warner – that salvation is not even really GIVEN in this life at all.

      You are not concerned with eternal security?! Yet, you spend a good deal of time arguing about the Rapture?

      Salvation is the core of Christianity. It would behoove you to understand salvation to the best of your ability. The arguments you bring up here have been addressed by many people including myself in books.

      While I’m glad you always come back to Scripture, it means nothing if you fail to understand the truth.

      While Scripture SEEMS (as you suggest) to teach any number of things, but really doesn’t. I do not wish to go point by point with you as I’ve already done that.

      What confuses me is that you seem not to have read any books by people who do NOT believe as you do with respect to eternal security. Had you done so, the points you raise would have been addressed by them and you would not be in this predicament.

      I’m amazed that you place so much energy into debating the Rapture and are not concerned with eternal security, yet you should be.

      You first began your debates here stating that Scripture should define itself (my words). Yet, it is clear that you have not taken into consideration ALL of Scripture especially with respect to eternal security.

      I previously quoted 1 John in which he clearly states that false prophets went out from them because they were not really part of them. Neither was Judas. These individuals likely BELIEVED themselves to be Christians and at times, certainly ACTED like Christians, but according to the gospel of John 3, there was no spiritual transaction.

      Ephesians 2 tells us that we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit until when? – the DAY OF REDEMPTION. I have heard Post-tribbers tell me that even though Romans 8:1 and 8:37-39 states that we are no longer condemned and nothing can separate us from God’s love, they say that WE (of our own free will) can walk away. That’s nuts and it does not jibe with ALL of Scripture.

      You say you don’t worry about this issue because you are born again, etc. Because of your view point, you SHOULD worry about it because according to you, you are able to turn permanently away from the Lord.

      Thanks for sending your last post, Mitchell. I’m not sure how we are brothers in Christ if you denigrate His ability to keep us safe. This brings into question His Lordship over you. Like Warner, you cannot know that you are actually saved until you stand before Him.

      All those times in Scripture where Paul or someone else states that people are saved IF they continue to the end, is a comment made strictly from a human perspective. Paul did not know who was and who was not saved. For him, only those people who NEVER fell away were actually saved (again, from a human perspective), which is why he naturally included the word “if” in his letters.

      Doing word studies is a great thing, Mitchell, but the problem is that a definition of a word does not tell you the entire picture.

      “I have $40 dollars left in my wallet.”
      “I need to make a left turn at the next light.”

      In the above two sentences, the true definition of the word “left” is finally determined by context, not solely definition. While you’re busy doing your word studies, I don’t see where you have researched the context OR the historical, grammatical meaning within the sentences and words. I’ve run up against this a number of times in the classes I’ve taught. People disagree with me over this or that and the first thing they do is look up the definition of the word and rest on that. It means nothing without context.

      Context in this case, is the ENTIRETY of Scripture. You pointed out the apostle John’s use of a word in Revelation as compared to another word he COULD have used. Do you use the same word all the time when describing similar or same events? We have plenty of synonyms at our disposal. If you do, you have a very limited vocabulary.

      I’ll leave you with this: I’m glad you go back to Scripture, which is where we should start and end. However, somewhere along the road, you seem to have gotten some bad advice about what is true and the best way to determine truth.

      If you would like, I would be happy to send you three of my books, free of charge. This way, you will have a very clear understanding of my beliefs and how I arrived at them. If you are interested, send me your address. If not, no worries.

      If you send me your address, it will not automatically post here. I always decide what gets posted here before it gets posted, so there is no chance that your physical address would become public information.

      Take care,
      Fred

  • 7. ICA  |  October 6, 2011 at 8:32 PM

    Hi modres! Thank you for posting my response to Bryan and for your reply. I appreciate you allowing this friendly discussion among brothers in Christ.

    modres, “Am I correct in assuming that you do not believe in eternal security either?”

    I definitely believe in eternal security for all of us who remain in Christ. Nothing can pluck us from our Savior’s hands. When I mentioned someone as ‘changing their mind’ in my previous post, I should have clarified that I meant in terms of how they understand a secondary or non-essential doctrine such as rapture timing, that’s all. 🙂

    modres, “With respect to the ‘last trump,’ you should understand that Israel used the trump on numerous occasions. There was usually a SERIES of trumps given during those occasions (whether it was a call to a festival, a king’s coronation, or a call to arms).”

    Yes, and I agree that this is in fact very important brother. The way that I understand it, I also see one additional level to this and view it similarly to how we understand types and shadows in the Old Testament. Consider, for instance, how animal sacrifices performed by men in the Old Testament were a shadow that pointed towards the substance to come, which was fulfilled in the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (John 1:29). Or physical circumcision, an outward expression which points to an inward reality of the circumcised heart by the work of the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11). Or even the old Temple of stone built by men, which was a type of the Spiritual Temple now comprised of believers and built by Yeshua (1 Pet 2:5, Eph 2:19-22). In those examples, what was once performed by the hands of man was now completed by the hand of God. In the same manner, I view the ‘last trumpet’ referred to by Paul not as the ending to the Feast of Trumpets themselves, which are blown by mere men, but rather as the last ‘trump of God’ as Paul is clear to reveal to us (1 Thess 4:16). As such, I believe that the ‘trump of God’ is revealed for us in Revelation 8:2, where John sees angels standing before God, and God giving them seven trumpets, to which the ‘last trump’ is the seventh and final trumpet in this series (Rev 10:7).

    modres, “People who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture point to Noah, but in my view, the situation with Noah was exactly like the situation with Lot. Lot only remained on the earth because the judgment sent by God was localized. Please note that it is very clear in God’s Word that Lot was safely REMOVED from the twin cities PRIOR to judgment falling.”

    I, too, believe that we will be ‘removed’ (gathered) prior to the wrath of God. I think that the difference though is with respect to how we each understand nature of the wrath of God. We read the very same verses that tell us we’re not appointed unto wrath, but come to different conclusions. Bear with me for a moment brother as I try to explain why I believe that we are removed prior to God’s wrath, but also why it is after the tribulation and how this harmonizes with Scripture. I will be more than happy to hear your take on this.

    First, here are all the verses which tell us that we are not appointed to wrath, or are saved from wrath:

    1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

    1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”

    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

    Next, let’s look at the Greek word specifically used for “wrath” in each of these verses to better understand what I am studying:

    1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Ok, so we are saved from, or not appointed to suffer, the “orge” wrath of God. Simple enough. Now when I look at the “wrath” that is described in Revelation, the word “wrath” itself is found 13 times in our English translations, but in the Greek the word translated as “wrath” is from two separate words: ”orge” and “thymos”. The “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from according to each verse above is only found six times. And here’s the kicker — each time “orge” is used it is always in a post-trib context only:

    1 and 2. It is mentioned after the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29).

    3. It is found after the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:18).

    4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).

    5. It is found after the seventh bowl (Rev 16:19). (I view the trumpets and bowls are two sides of the same coin, as separate descriptions of the same event, with the trumpets as the cause and the bowls are the effect).

    6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).

    As for the “thymos” wrath, according to Revelation it is directed upon a very specific group only — the Antichrist, his land, his kingdom, those who have received the Mark of the Beast, those who worship the image of the Beast, those who have shed the blood of the saints (Rev 16). Those upon whom the bowls of “thymos” are being poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they refuse (Rev 9:20-21; 16:9-11). But when the “orge” wrath comes, however, there is no such provision for repentance.

    This, therefore, tells me that the “orge” wrath that we are saved from is not the same type of wrath that we find during the Great Tribulation. It is only immediately after the tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ. As such, even if the rapture does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still be present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets/bowls upon the Antichrist, his kingdom, and his people right up until the beginning of the seventh and last trumpet, at which point we are removed by being gather to Christ just before the ‘orge’ wrath.

    Every time in Scripture we read that we as believers are not appointed to wrath, or will be delivered from wrath, it is always the “orge” of God which is found in a post-trib context only. In this wrath the anger will not subside, it will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke repentance like “thymos”, because when the “orge” of God comes it is then too late.

    Now I could be wrong, but the Greek text yet again forces me to come to a post-trib understanding. I look forward to your take.

    God bless brother …

    • 8. modres  |  October 7, 2011 at 6:27 AM

      Mitchell,

      You originally stated that you like to discuss “new” things that you have discovered. It appears from your comments here AND from your blog that nothing you’ve presented here is “new” to you. In fact, it seems clear enough that you have held this position for quite some time. I note also that you mention Tim Warner on your blog page. I fully disagree with much of what Warner teaches.

      He – like you – teaches/believes in eternal salvation that is only known once we pass from this life to the next. For instance, your comment “I definitely believe in eternal security for all of us who remain in Christ” establishes the belief that IF a person does NOT remain in Christ, they CAN/WILL lose their salvation. I repudiate that completely and unlike Warner and yourself, I believe I’m on solid Scriptural ground.

      Second, with respect to God’s wrath, I would agree that it is in the way we define it. If we look at Revelation 6, it is clear that the people of the earth knew that what was transpiring was due solely to the Lord’s WRATH and this attestation occurred LONG before the point in future time where you believe God’s wrath “kicks in.”

      As I have stated before, we can discuss these things until the cows come home and we would get absolutely nowhere. It’s funny, but I’ve had one other person from Tim Warner’s camp chase me down on the Internet and try to push me up against a wall. It’s really interesting the way you guys work. You’re as polite as ever, but you are really liars, unfortunately. You’re not here to “discuss.” You’re here to lecture, at least as far as I can see.

      It seems extremely important to you that you “win” the debate. That’s exactly Warner’s viewpoint (and those who have aligned themselves with him).

      I have written a number of books on these subjects: “The PreTrib Rapture,” “End of the Ages,” and “Finishing the Race.” Why on earth would I want to be drawn into long debates regarding issues I have already dealt with thoroughly in my books?

      If you do not believe that salvation is secure in THIS life (and that it is impossible to for the authentic Christian to fall away), then unfortunately, we are NOT “brothers” as you keep saying.

      Again, I wish I could help you see your error, but it would appear that you are absolutely not at all interested in even considering my views. You gloss over my responses and quickly get to yours.

      I have explained that with both Noah and Lot, BOTH were completely REMOVED from their situations PRIOR to any form of God’s wrath (judgment) being poured out. While you “agree” (though you said something entirely different in your original post that made it sound as though both scenarios proved Post-Trib Rapture), you really don’t agree, and move onto another aspect of things, redirecting to the meaning of “wrath.”

      Wrath is God’s judgment, poured out against unbelievers. It is never poured out onto His own. It is clear that both Noah and Lot were SAFELY removed from the area of judgment before God poured out His wrath. Even Christ makes this comparison.

      I wish I could believe you when you say that this knowledge is “new” and you simply like discussing it. Unfortunately, because of what you are saying here, it is patently clear that it is NOT new at all, but has been part of your belief system for some time.

      Ultimately, our views on the Rapture do not matter. They matter to YOU because you believe I am wrong and you also believe that there is a chance that people can lose salvation if they do not remain in Christ. For you though (like Warner), salvation is not awarded until AFTER this life, so in effect, you can truthfully say that people cannot lose salvation since it is not given until after people pass from this life to the next. In your mind, you are being truthful. Unfortunately, this is not what the Scripture says, but it is what people like Warner (and possibly you) believe: “Continuing in faith in Christ until the end of life is necessary for our salvation to be permanent. Salvation is of the whole person, spirit, soul, and body. The completion of our salvation awaits the resurrection of the body “at His coming.” (from the website of the church where Warner pastors).

      I think we are done, Mitchell. There is no point to continue further. You have your own blog, which means that you have a place where you can “discuss” and it appears that you do just that.

      With respect to the Rapture, I’ve said this repeatedly: it does NOT matter to me WHEN it happens. I place my trust in Christ and I know He will protect and provide for me. Debating this issue – as some are prone to do – is a complete waste of time. In fact, it simply serves to “puff up” because then a person can sit back and wallow in their own belief that they have “won” x-number of debates. That is ridiculous.

      My biggest concern for people is related to salvation. I’m concerned that they have it and I’m very concerned when I run into people like you (or Warner) who believes that salvation is something that we cannot be sure of in this life. While on one hand, Warner and others say that it is by faith alone, in Christ alone, they normally wind up adding something to the mix. It’s wrong. If we believe that salvation is not fully receivable in this life now, then Jesus is not as strong as He states He is in Scripture. There is something that is heretical about that position, because the emphasis gets placed on humanity, not on Christ.

      Anyway, I pray that the Lord will bless you by opening your eyes to the truth, Mitchell.

  • 9. ICA  |  October 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM

    Hi Brother Bryan V, thank you for your excellent reply. I appreciate the time you took in putting your response together. I hope Brother modres will approve this reply, it makes for a great discussion when we share our two perspectives in this regard openly, honestly and respectfully.

    Here is how I would answer the points you’ve shared above. For your consideration:

    Bryan V, “For one, another mighty angel, is not referring to the Lord. Only the term ‘Angel of the Lord’ would refer to Christ. And this was a term typically used in the old testament to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ. The mighty angels are most likely the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel.”

    I think the link above to Lamb & Lion addresses this quite well.

    Bryan V, “Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

    The Lord would not sware to himself. Another angel would however.”

    Hebrews 6:13, “For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself”.

    Likewise, the “Mighty Messenger” who descends from Heaven in Rev 10:1 can swear by no one greater and thus swears by Him who created all things — Himself.

    Bryan V, “When the Lord comes to rapture the church, He will not come down to earth. He will descend from heaven so that we will meet Him in the air.”

    Acts 3:21, “He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.”

    According to the Old Testament prophets, God does not restore everything until the Second Coming when Christ destroys Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon and sets up His Millennial Kingdom. The Greek text says that Christ will descend (katabainō –> to come down [from another place]) from (apo –> separation) heaven. According to the Greek text, Christ cannot “descend from heaven” yet still “remain in heaven”.

    Bryan V, “The rapture will happen in an instant and will not occur over days.”

    The transformation of our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible will be instant. We will “all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump” (1 Cor 15:51-52). But Scripture does not say how long to complete the gathering of the elect. It could be very quickly, or it could take an indeterminate amount of time for the angels to “gather together his elect from the four winds” (Matt 24:31). Scripture just doesn’t tell us.

    Bryan V, “There is also nothing in scripture to say that the last trump is, in any way, referring to the trumpets in revelations.”

    I would argue that my previous post from above addresses this point.

    Bryan V, “The coming of Christ to rapture his bride, mimics the traditional Jewish wedding.”

    There are multiple variations on what a ‘traditional Jewish wedding’ consisted of (even many Jewish historians don’t agree) so it’s easy to pick the one that would seem to support our view. I would say, however, that it isn’t good practice to rely on ‘traditions’ when interpreting Scripture. It’s best to let Scripture interpret itself, imho.

    Bryan V, “Also, the rapture is supposed to have a sense of immanency and there are no signs to look for prior to the rapture.”

    If “there are no signs to look for prior to the rapture” and we could never know when it will happen, then why did Jesus imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? Jesus says, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

    This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it uses the exact same language as verses that many use to state that we can never know (Matt. 24:36; 25:13; Mark 13:32) and reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know.

    Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words anywhere else in Scripture, and Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. As with all passages we must maintain context, context, context. If we read Matt 24:36 closely in its proper context we realize that Jesus does *not* say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know and that we will never know. Jesus is merely saying, in the present tense per the Greek, that we do not know right now when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. Why watch? Watch so that we CAN KNOW, because today we do not know the day or hour of His return. This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Revelation 3:3, and it is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering (rapture) unto Christ, and that that day – the Day of the Lord – will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH. Watch for what? Exactly what Jesus told us: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Matt 24:15).

    Bryan V, “The rapture is also said to occur when the times are like that of Noah’s. This means the world is going on with business as usual. Any time after the 7 years begins could not be considered business as usual.”

    If it’s true that “any time after the 7 years begins could not be considered business as usual”, then how on earth will anyone ever possibly find the time to “make merry, and send gifts to one another” near the end of the tribulation (Rev. 11:10) if the world is nearly completely destroyed?

    God always removed the wicked from the earth in during His judgment, not the righteous. Consider Noah, who remained on earth while the wicked were removed. Or consider Lot, who remained on earth while the wicked were removed. In fact, Jesus even says in Matthew 13:30 that He will “Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, ‘First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.'”

    When are the tares gathered?

    Revelation 16:16, “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

    Bryan V, “I believe that the rapture will occur before a worldwide catastrophe takes place. The time of Noah refers to a time prior to a worldwide calamity.”

    What kind of worldwide catastrophe? And if this catastrophe happens, and we’re still here, will this be enough to cause some to change their minds?

    Proverbs 10:30, “The righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land.”

    Bryan V, “Keeps yours eyes up and stay alert. Make your best effort to prepare yourself for the groom.
    May God bless those who heed His word and believe in Him. Amen.”

    Amen brother. God bless …

    • 10. modres  |  October 6, 2011 at 6:30 AM

      I don’t mind allowing these posts as long as they stay on topic and do not become repetitive.

      ICA – I will give you one big clue about the Rapture. Take the time to study the Jewish Festivals. With respect to the “last trump,” you should understand that Israel used the trump on numerous occasions. There was usually a SERIES of trumps given during those occasions (whether it was a call to a festival, a king’s coronation, or a call to arms). At the end of a series of trumps in succession, there was normally a long, loud, trump as the finale. This long, loud trump is known to be the “last trump.” Because the trump (shofar) was sounded on a variety of occasions, my belief is that Paul’s reference to the “last trump” is in keeping with the way the shofar was used, ending with the long, loud trumpet blast for whatever the occasion happened to be that it was being used.

      I think if more of us Gentiles approached Scripture from a Jewish standpoint, there would be far greater understanding of His Word. As it is, like many, you have simply assumed that Paul’s reference to the “last trump” points to the last trumpet judgment in Revelation, when there is not necessarily any correlation at all.

      There is a great likelihood that when the Rapture occurs, there will be a series of trumps, ending with the loud, long trump. I believe that’s what Paul was referring to and it makes perfect sense when compared with how the trump (again, shofar) was used in Israelite history.

      By the way, Noah did not remain on the earth as you suggest. He actually rose ABOVE it safely secure within the Ark on top of the water that completely encircled the earth. In fact, there was no place on earth that Noah could have remained and still have been saved. Apart from being inside the Ark, the only other place would have been to take Noah to heaven through death physically. For all intents and purposes, God removed Noah from the surface of the earth. It’s pretty clear. Had Noah actually remained ON the earth, water would have seeped into the Ark and all would have drowned.

      People who do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture point to Noah, but in my view, the situation with Noah was exactly like the situation with Lot. Lot only remained on the earth because the judgment sent by God was localized. Please note that it is very clear in God’s Word that Lot was safely REMOVED from the twin cities PRIOR to judgment falling. I’m sorry you are unable to see that. It is the same with Noah. He was safely put into the Ark (God sealing it from the outside) BEFORE any judgment fell at all and literally removed from the place of judgment – the earth.

      ICA, I wish you could see the holes in your arguments. Am I correct in assuming that you do not believe in eternal security either? Your comment: “will this be enough to cause some to change their minds?” seems to imply that belief.

      This seems to be the case with many who are not Pre-Trib Rapturists. They seem to misunderstand just exactly what eternal security is and the role of God in keeping our security secure. No one can change their mind. That is clear from any number of passages in Scripture. In fact, John makes this abundantly clear in 1 John when he states that those who went out from them, were not part of them. He is speaking of people who LEFT the fold of Christianity. They did so because they were never really part of the fold, just as Judas was never really part of the fold and was literally the son of perdition.

      The only people who can change their minds are those who are professing Christians. In that case, the Holy Spirit does not indwell them and it is easy for them to walk away, but all they are actually walking away from is a lifestyle that made them appear to be Christian. Since we do not know who is and who is not an authentic Christian, we assume that someone who appeared to be a devout Christian and walked away, actually lost their salvation when in fact, they were merely professing Christians, not authentic ones. This is another issue that could be debated until everyone runs out of breath.

      This is the problem with “debating.” No matter how many times things like this are discussed, no one changes their mind. Because for instance, the Pre-Trib Rapture debate can lead into other areas, this debate can go on forever.

      I have read ALL the arguments. There is nothing new that you can bring to this discussion that I am not already aware of and I don’t say that to be demeaning or to sound arrogant. I say that to point out I have done thorough research on it. I could go through and point out all the holes and inconsistencies in your reasoning above, but it would simply engender MORE debate/discussion and it would become monotonous. In the end – if we ever decided to stop discussing it – each of us would be at the same place then, as when we first began discussing it.

      in spite of your attestation that you like to discuss it, you seem just as set in your mind as Bryan and I are in our minds. All we are doing then, is reiterating to each other personally what all the books have done impersonally.

  • 11. Nathan  |  October 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM

    Here is a good article by Dr. David Reagan over on the Lamb & Lion Ministries Blog that talks about the “mighty angel” in Revelation 10:

    http://www.lamblion.us/2010/06/revelation-chapters-10-11.html

  • 12. ICA  |  September 26, 2011 at 12:57 PM

    Hi brother modres, just briefly, if I may:

    Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

    Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular passages in the entire Bible?

    1 Thess 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

    In Revelation 10 we have:

    1. A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven
    2. Crying out with a loud voice
    3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound
    4. And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound

    In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have:

    1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel
    2. With a shout
    3. Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God
    4. The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye

    My point is simply this – When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church. In my humble opinion.

    • 13. modres  |  September 26, 2011 at 4:06 PM

      Actually, you weren’t that brief…

      The MOST you can say is that your scenario is POSSIBLE. You have decided that it is MORE than possible; that it is FACT and I do not believe you can do that. As firmly as I believe in the Pre-Trib position, I do NOT believe I can state that it is FACT. I can state that I firmly believe it to be fact, but that’s it.

      There have been any number of commentators who have actually addressed the alleged similarities you point out between Revelation 10 and the two other passages of Scripture. While – yes – the Holy Spirit as God DOES see the beginning from the end and easily could have planned to have Paul reveal the Rapture and then John support it with additional text, but you are still left with PRESUPPOSITION.

      I like to discuss Eschatology as much as anyone and have published a number of books on the subject, but in the end, let’s say I’m wrong about the Pre-Trib position as many say that I am. In fact, many now conclude that I am deluded, a heretic, and headed for hell, but that’s another story. What these individuals (and possibly you) do not realize is that it does NOT matter to me. I do not sit here thinking with giddy delight how wonderful it will be when the saints are whisked off the planet prior to the start of the Tribulation. I may die long before the Tribulation even begins. On the other hand, it is also possible that I am wrong and will experience some, most, or all of the Tribulation. If I do, then so be it. His grace will keep me resolute in Him throughout any portion of the Tribulation I might suffer through. Of that, I am supremely confident.

      Do you understand that it does not matter to me? Do you understand that the debate you wish to enter into is not important to me at all? Do you understand that the study of Eschatology should do ONE thing: “We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure,” (1 John 3:2b-3).

      Do you understand what John is saying here? He is saying that just by the fact that we know that Jesus will return one day to set up His Kingdom, we are purified in that knowledge because it is that fact that keeps us from wasting our lives doing things we should not be doing.

      The sad part of what you’re doing is all of the text you have left out in your reference to Revelation 10. While you are trying to draw a comparison between that passage and the other two, there is so much happening in Revelation 10 that is not even REMOTELY like the descriptions in either the Thessalonians or Corinthians passages. The little book in Revelation 10 is extremely important, yet you have chosen to ignore it because you are concerned about making sure the three passages line up and since the book is not mentioned in the other two, it’s not part of your equation. Yet, that book is very important.

      Also, the “mystery” is different from the three passages. While both Thessalonians and Corinthians refer to the “mystery” of the dead being raised, the “mystery” in Revelation likely reveals to the soon coming consummation of ALL things with respect to the judgment and destruction of sinners AND the establishment of His Kingdom on earth.

      Seriously, if you wish to believe what you are peddling, that is perfectly fine. I do not want to talk you out of it (and I doubt that I could even if I wanted to). Though I have never stopped studying Eschatology, I HAVE stopped debating it some time ago. It serves no purpose at all, in my view.

    • 14. Bryan V.  |  October 5, 2011 at 8:39 AM

      I understand the connection you are making but it is in error.

      For one, another mighty angel, is not referring to the Lord. Only the term ‘Angel of the Lord’ would refer to Christ. And this was a term typically used in the old testament to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ. The mighty angels are most likely the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel.

      Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

      The Lord would not sware to himself. Another angel would however.

      ver 5
      5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

      When the Lord comes to rapture the church, He will not come down to earth. He will descend from heaven so that we will meet Him in the air.

      Ver 7
      7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

      The rapture will happen in an instant and will not occur over days.

      There is also nothing in scripture to say that the last trump is, in any way, referring to the trumpets in revelations. Revelation came many years after Paul wrote about the last trump. He knew nothing about the 7 trumpets of judgment. The coming of Christ to rapture his bride, mimics the traditional Jewish wedding. The last trump would sound when the groom was near the brides home and was use to call her out. They might use a trumpet or they might simply shout.

      Also, the rapture is supposed to have a sense of immanency and there are no signs to look for prior to the rapture. We have signs to tell us the end is near, but nothing definitive that must occur before the rapture. If the rapture was to occur any time after the 7 years of tribulation began, then we might become lax and wait for the sign to occur first.

      The rapture is also said to occur when the times are like that of Noah’s. This means the world is going on with business as usual. Any time after the 7 years begins could not be considered business as usual.

      A worldwide economic collapse would definitely cause the world to lose its business as usual aspect. If the rapture doesn’t occur prior to the collapse, then the world would have to get back on its feet and we would have to become complacent again. This would take at least a generation or two to get back to business as usual.

      I believe that the rapture will occur before a worldwide catastrophe takes place. The time of Noah refers to a time prior to a worldwide calamity.

      Keeps yours eyes up and stay alert. Make your best effort to prepare yourself for the groom.

      May God bless those who heed His word and believe in Him. Amen.

  • 15. ICA  |  September 26, 2011 at 12:32 PM

    For those interested, please feel free to comment on the following two short articles:

    [URLs deleted]

    Scripture interprets scripture.

    • 16. modres  |  September 26, 2011 at 12:41 PM

      Hi,

      I removed the URLs from your post. This is not the place for DEBATE.

      I also strongly disagree with your own convictions that the “last trump” refers to the 7th Trump of Revelation. This subject has been done to death. Revelation had not even been written when Paul made his statements in Thessalonians and Corinthians. You are treating it as if the “last trump” MUST refer to the 7th Trump instead of following your own advice in allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. There were many uses of the trump in the Old Testament and they often came with a series of trumps. Paul may simply be referring to the “last trump” in that particular series that announces the Rapture.

      You know, it just doesn’t matter to me. This continued debating about eschatology is pointless. We all need to be far more concerned about introducing the lost to Jesus, as opposed to arguing over dates, times, and seasons. If you are content with your view, wonderful. You have your own blog which allows you to express that view. You don’t need to come here to try to press your point.

  • 17. ICA  |  May 1, 2011 at 9:13 PM

    Could it cause the world to collapse? Well, yes it will. But I am more than convinced that the rapture is post-trib, so it happens just before the ‘orge’ wrath of God is meted out upon the wicked.

    • 18. modres  |  May 1, 2011 at 9:31 PM

      I do not want to debate you at all. It’s pointless. You are free to believe what you want to believe. I will say this though…the New Age has been teaching a type of Rapture for the past twenty to thirty years. In fact, dating back to 1952 with George Van Tassel, he received channeled messages from Ashtar Command telling him that at some point in the future, spaceship would literally “vacuum” millions of people off the face of the earth. These individuals will be then taken to larger spaceships and ferried to other planets. At that point, this earth will be able to progress to the next spiritual plane. The people who will be vacuumed off the planet are considered to be the malcontents. Once they are gone – they teach – the “messiah” can then come to the fore. He is Maitreya for the New Age and the final Mahdi for Islam – same person; the Antichrist.

      Funny how they have had to keep revising things, putting off the timing for the future. Why? Because they say that something stands in the way of the messiah coming to the fore. They say the powers of darkness (that’s Christianity and the true Church) is working to hold back the revealing of the messiah.

      I find it fascinating that Satan has bothered to take the time to teach his “followers” all about the Rapture and the order of events even using phrases like “twinkling of an eye” in these channeled messages. Why? Because he obviously knows it will happen and when it does, the perfect explanation will already be in place to calm the fears of a world on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

      As for me, even though I’m a PreTribber, I could care less when it happens. If by some chance, I’m wrong (which you would say without equivocation that I am), and the Tribulation begins with the Rapture not occurring, that’s His will. My suffering is for His glory.

      What I get tired of is the many folks who are not PreTribbers who have arrived at all these extra-biblical reasons (taking their cue from Dave MacPherson, who I understand is off the radar and building a house of sorts underground to be protected when the Tribulation occurs) why I really believe in the PreTrib Rapture. Apparently, it has nothing to do with the Bible and everything to do with the fact that I apparently don’t want to suffer persecution! Of course, we all know that me wishing that makes it true. What arrogance on the part of those who actually believe that is the reason…

      As far as God’s wrath is concerned, it appears to me that from the opening of the very first seal in Revelation to the last bowl, it all comes from God and emanates from His throne. God is in complete control as to when each judgment is released and has absolutely control over all participants. The people on the earth know that it is the “wrath of the Lamb” as well (cf. Revelation 6). It is also fascinating that the Lamb was found WORTHY to open that scroll that contains 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls – all representative of God’s WRATH. These are ALL judgments; God’s judgments, not Satan’s and certainly not man’s.

      Seems kind of pointless to have a Rapture at the exact moment that Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation. The people in the New Age are expecting the malcontents to be gone, THEN the messiah will rise to rule. Either Satan is a complete idiot or he knows something that you don’t. If not, he is wasting his time telling his “followers” in the New Age to prepare for an event that no one will really notice…if it occurs at the end of the Tribulation as you say.

      Frankly, I’m thinking Satan knows the Bible better than both of us…

      • 19. bosloh  |  September 26, 2011 at 1:46 AM

        Fantastic modres! You’ve hit many nails on the head! I agree with you wholeheartedly. The pre-trib rapture is pure escapism, as some say. Well, DUH! Ya, it is escapeism! I believe the pre-trib rapture IS a way to escape God’s wrath — provided by God Himself! Just because we long and hope for it, doesn’t make it less Biblical. The Church is nowhere to be found, not mentioned, from Revelation 4 until way after the Tribulation in about chapter 19 or something. Why, you ask? Because the Church is gone. G-O-N-E! Bye bye! See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya!

  • 20. business daily  |  March 29, 2011 at 9:18 AM

    ………………ANALYSIS-After the crisis a worldwide rise in unrest? Systemic rise in worldwide unrest might just be beginning………………..With the Middle East in turmoil other authoritarian states jumpy and..post-crisis economic pain prompting protest in western Europe and elsewhere ..some suspect a systemic rise in worldwide unrest might just be beginning…Instability in the already volatile oil-producing Middle East could..produce a feedback loop where unrest pushes up energy prices fuelling inflation..and deepening discontent both in the region and around the world…In most countries the so-called misery index — an..aggregation of unemployment and inflation long seen as a warning of protest and..instability — is pushing higher …Many Bible prophecy experts have pointed to a time for which such turmoil..throughout the world would make for the perfect storm that would give rise to an..international leader. I would not discount that this sudden Middle East revolt..could rise up into a full-blown worldwide unrest. It certainly could lead to a..world that would be eager to accept anyone who could bring the global unrest and..instability back to a sense of normality…Scripture indicates when the Antichrist does rise he will be marked first..and foremost as a person that brings peace Daniel 9 27 .

  • 21. Mark  |  March 19, 2011 at 6:23 PM

    great post – I enjoy pondering the rapture and the explanation afterwords – i have never read the book but I heard of one called earthquake resurrection that would give reason to why so many have disappeared – I wonder if a worldwide series of earthquakes would be just the ticket??

    • 22. modres  |  March 20, 2011 at 10:16 AM

      There’s ONE huge earthquake that the Bible speaks of in Ezekiel 38 – 39 which will flatten mountains and move islands during the Northern Invasion. That would obviously do a great deal of damage.

  • 23. Cocopea  |  March 17, 2011 at 8:23 PM

    Hi there,

    The Rapture is my favorite subject and you just knocked this out of the park! Excellent, excellent piece. I so agree with everything you have written and I have written the same, posed the same questions and scenarios. But you really did a great job of bringing all current events together with what is most likely to come. Great post! Thank you!

    Blessings!

    • 24. modres  |  March 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM

      Thank you for your kind words.


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