Seventh-Day Adventism Trying to Hide…

December 29, 2009 at 6:13 PM 21 comments

Since I began reading (and reviewing), Steve Wohlberg’s book End Time Delusions, I’ve come across a good deal of information, that is connected to Wohlberg, and his beliefs.

First, Wohlberg is a Seventh-day Adventist, though I could find no reference to it in any portion of his book, End Time Delusions.  While it is possible that he has it there somewhere, I was simply unable to locate it.  If someone knows whether he has included information about his “denomination” in his book, I would appreciate it if it could be pointed out to me.

While searching for more information, I found a number of helpful as well as insightful tidbits I thought I would pass along.  On one particular website I came across, one individual became rather heated by the fact that Wohlberg refused to announce his Seventh-day Adventist leanings.  He stated, “I find it particularly OFFENSIVE, for someone to attempt to “HOODWINK” anyone about one’s religious affiliation, if Pastor Wohlberg is ASHAMED of being a Seventh-day Adventist, he should say so, or publicly proclaim his affiliation with the denomination!“1

Apparently, this individual wrote to Wohlberg and he received this reply (in part): “I don’t mention my personal denominational affiliation on my web site simply because the Word of God is much bigger than any church. Bible truth will endure forever, not the Seventh-day Adventist Church. My desire is to reach out to as many people as possible with the pure truth of God’s Word. I am a follower of Jesus Christ first and a Seventh-day Adventist second…

As far as I’m concerned, that response is a copout.  Most who know anything of Seventh-day Adventism to begin with, know of “The Great Disappointment,” perpetrated by original founder, William Miller (whose followers became known as Millerites).  There was a “general” prophecy from Miller that Christ would physically return between March 1843 and March 1844.  When this did not occur, there was the shock and dismay at believing something that turned out to be nothing.  Many individuals went their own way, and a number of smaller organizations came from the Millerites.

Eventually, Ellen G. White became known as a modern-day prophet (and is still recognized as such), and through her, what has become the modern Seventh-day Adventist movement came to the fore.  From the failed “The Great Disappointment,” came the doctrine known as “Investigative Judgment.”  This was/is the belief that God began judging those within the Church since that time, as to the sincerity of their faith and salvation.

Ellen G. White herself, rejected eternal security, indicating essentially that there is no way to know for certain whether one is saved or not in this life.  What the Christian must do is persevere until the end of his/her life.  At that point, while standing before Christ, it will be revealed to us one way or another.

Since I accidentally came across Wohlberg’s book, I originally had no clue of his denominational background.  Frankly, I do not view Seventh-day Adventism as a denomination, so much as I view it as cult-like.  This and this alone, is likely why it is much better to publish books and have a public ministry, incognito.  The truth is though, we have denominations and religions because that is how people often identify themselves, with respect to theology and doctrine.  Yes, I am a Christian first, just like Wohlberg says he is, but I have no difficulty in telling people that I am a member of a particular church and/or denomination.  I’m not trying to hide anything.

Because of the amount of heresy, doctrinal flaws and simply wrongly interpreting Scripture today, it is often necessary to tell people exactly what affiliation one has, with respect to a denomination.  It is not good enough to merely say “I’m a Christian” in this day and age, because of the many different views of it.  Mormons believe they are the only true Christians, as do Jehovah’s Witnesses, and of course, Seventh-day Adventists would also state that they (or people who believe as they believe) make up the true Remnant.  To simply state “I’m a Christian” can mean just about anything today.  I want to know what theology a person aligns themselves with, and by attempting to utilize Christian-sounding verbiage, but hiding any denominational, or religious affiliation, the question then becomes, what are they hiding?

When I tell people that I see validity in Dispensationalism, they jump to all types of conclusions, many of them plain wrong.  However, I would prefer that they at least say something so that discusion can occur, as opposed to never saying anything.  I am not afraid to tell people that I belong to the IFCA, and I do so because I agree with their doctrinal stance.  There is nothing there that makes me question their understanding of salvation, for instance, and I happen to agree with them on their Eschatological viewpoint, as well as their other doctrinal points.

Steve Wohlberg, aside from not stating his denominational affiliation, also apparently has no education in the theological area.  It is only in going to his website, on the “About Us” page, where a one-line sentence reads: “The Wohlbergs are members of the Newport Washington Seventh-day Adventist Church.”  This information is not listed under the “Director” or “Staff” information, where Wohlberg is listed, or any other place on the website that I could find.

In essence, Wohlberg is a self-taught theologian.  Anything wrong with that?  Not necessarily, however, I note that both Jesus and Paul learned under trained rabbis.  Now, if Jesus Himself needed to learn under the tutelage of a trained rabbi, then how much more should we?  This of course, does not mean that we believe anything anyone tells us.  The Bereans in the book of Acts did not do this, and Paul was certainly not offended that they looked to Scripture to determine the truthfulness of what he was telling them.

The problem, as we may or may not know, is that there is a way to read and interpret Scripture, which will provide the correct understanding.  Oh, I know, I know, someone comes along and says “Well how do you know that YOUR method of interpretation is THE method, Fred?!”  Good question and there is an answer.  When I read Scripture, I read it pretty much like any other book.  What I mean by that is simply that when I read Shakespeare, or Steinbeck, or anyone, I do my best to understand what THEY are telling ME.  I do NOT try to place MY meaning over theirs.  In order to ascertain the meaning that they have provided with the words they have used, it requires me to dig a bit at times.

What did Shakespeare mean when he said what he said “All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.”  Now, it would be easy to read that and apply a meaning to it; a meaning that might even sound good.  But the bottom line though is what is SHAKESPEARE’S meaning, not what I THINK his meaning is as he penned those words.  In order to fully grasp his meaning, I have to research words, and I have to understand how those words were used DURING Shakespeare’s lifetime.  I also have to understand what life in general was like during his lifetime.  I cannot simply understand HIS lifetime through MINE.  That makes no sense at all.

People do this all the time with the Bible.  They attempt to find meaning in it, by PLACING meaning on top of it.  They also believe that the Bible – because it is written by God – says something to every generation, BASED on that particular generation itself.  This is simply not true.  The Bible was written at various points in actual human history, even though God oversaw the entire process and He never changes.  It does me no good to attempt to understand the vernacular of the Bible, written 3500 B.C., from my vantage point of 2010!  I would not do that with Shakespeare, or Steinbeck, or any other work of antiquity, but with the Bible, all bets seem to be off.  It’s a “magic” book, therefore it says something to me that might be different from what it says to you.  That is hogwash.

In order for me to understand the Bible, it is imperative that I determine not only the meaning of words, but the context in which they are used.  Moreover, I must also determine what life was like THEN, when the Bible was written.  Even when John was writing Revelation, he was using terminology and points of references that were known to him THEN.  It really requires some type of serious study under teachers who can provide the type of teaching required to understand and rightly divide His Word.

One of the biggest things I hear from people who do not have Bible college or seminary degrees, but are self-taught when it comes to Scripture, is that they do not need to learn under men.  They have the Holy Spirit, who teaches us.  Their opinion also extends to the belief that people who go to Bible college (specifially if it is connected in any way, shape or form to Dispensationalism), are simply spoon fed theology and students believe it, never dissecting it, testing it against the Word, or anything else.  It is merely taught and accepted, word for word.  That is also garbage, yet the belief persists.

What I find more ridiculous is the idea that people who have absolutely no training in the biblical languages believe they can merely look up a word here or another there in some lexicon, and voila! understand what the text states.  That is only part of the issue.  The other part, which is actually more important is understanding the context.  The context is more than simply the words surrounding other words.  Context includes lifestyles of the people who penned the Bible, how they lived, what they ate, what idioms they used in everyday speech, and in general, what life was like for THEM when the Holy Spirit moved them to write the words in one book or another of the Bible.

People who do not take the time to properly dissect God’s Word fail to grasp the actual, intended meaning.  They come up with all sorts of ideas and theologies that have no bearing in truth.  Unfortunately, Wohlberg, in my opinion, does this throughout his book, End Time Delusions.  I was at Amazon.com the other day checking out his book and the reivews for it.  Out of 28 reviews, only a few questioned the book’s contents.  All others were just about tripping over themselves to see who could provide more accolades.  It makes one wonder how many of those reviewers are Seventh-day Adventists!  Either that, or they are unable to see any difficulties at all with what Wohlberg writes in his book; problems that are obvious to a person who understands church history, biblical customs, terminology and verbiage utilized by those who actually lived during those times and much more.  More often than not, Wohlberg seems to simply be spitballing, and his “proof” is often convoluted meandering.

Another thing I found interesting is as I was searching the ‘Net here and there, I came across a number of pages that looked eerily similar and most of them (that I checked out), quoted and/or referred to Wohlberg’s books.  I came to one site where I found that there were 125 websites of this nature that were all connected, and from what I can tell, they are all owned by the same person, who lives in Australia.  Of course, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but I find it fascinating.  No wonder Wohlberg’s books get out there, if there are 125 websites that promote him and/or his books.  Going to any of these sites finds the same comments regarding their refusal to indicate which denominational affiliation with which they are connected.

It was never God’s intention for His Church to be divided into multiple denominations and sadly, we have found through experience that many choose to judge what they read based on one’s denomination. We also discovered that the more truth a Church has, the more lies the enemy has coming against it to keep people from finding truth. See who is the remnant Church for more information. After our first few thousand hours of study, it rapidly became more and more apparent that what is truth is not always popular and what is popular is not always truth. Mark Twain once said, “A lie can travel halfway around the world, while truth puts on its shoes.

Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination. This decision was made with much prayer and ultimately so this ministry could be more effective in spreading truth to the world. The following scriptures inform us of what truth is and how it should be established and it is not by one’s denomination. John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way and the TRUTH…” John 17:17 “Sanctify them through your Truth: your WORD is TRUTH.” 1 Thessalonians 2:13 “…when you received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in TRUTH, the Word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Sorry, not good enough, especially with all the cults, isms and movements alive and well today.  I want to know who stands behind these folks and their “self-funded” ministry.  Apparently, Seventh-day Adventism stands behind them, but they simply prefer not to say it.  Note they indicate that those who have the most truth, the more Satan works to destroy that group with lies.  This is another copout, in my opinion.  Of course, because they say that they “prayed” about their decision not to reveal their denomination, that should settle the matter.  Wohlberg does the same thing in his book.  He speaks of how much time he prayed, and sought the Holy Spirit’s teaching on the things he presents in his book.  But since nearly everyone who is in some type of ministry says the same thing, who are we to believe since obviously not all theological opinions match?

There are major problems in my view, with Seventh-day Adventism, but chief among them is their view of salvation, along with their legalistic view of God’s commands.  As indicated, Ellen G. White taught (and it is still taught today in the SDA), that salvation can be lost.  I realize that people have been debating and arguing about this since the beginning of the Church, and no one will solve this problem today.  The reality though is that each and every person really needs to sit down with the Scriptures and determine what the Scriptures say, not what someone else tells us it says.  This is not to negate the tutelage of another person, or persons, who are mature Christians, or those who have spent years studying languages.  What I’m saying is that ultimately, if it sounds like someone has created this huge rabbit trail, which meanders through the pages of Scripture, until it comes to a very unlikely end, then it is questionable theology at best.

You do not need to be a genius to study and understand God’s Word.  You do have to apply some of the same basic guidelines that you apply when you read just about anything: context, history, grammar.  If you start there, you should be good to go.  If you come to prophecy and decide that all prophecy should be interpreted allegorically for instance, then you had better be able to explain why you believe this is so, and saying that this is what someone else says is not good enough.  While prophecy always contains symbolism for the most part, that symbolism’s meaning is not up to you to decide.

At one point in Wohlberg’s book, he makes a declarative statement that one day equals one year in prophecy.  He is referencing the Daniel 9:24-27 passage and then cites text in Numbers and Exodus as his proof.  When considering these two “proof” passages, it becomes quite obvious that they have nothing to do with prophecy, or setting the measurement of a day equalling a year as any type of principle!  Another thing Wohlberg does is go against the use of grammatical antecedents in his understanding of the pronoun “he” in the Daniel 9:24-27 passage.  He actually states that grammatically, it is correct to do what he does – saying that all three usages of “he” in Daniel 9:27 refer back to Jesus, when in point of fact, this is not at all what the proper understanding of antecedents means.  That does not matter to Wohlberg though, because he has a point to prove and that point is that the “he” in Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ (Messiah), from Daniel 9:24, even though there is a much better chance it refers to the “prince” of the people who is to come (which Wohlberg says is Titus), who quite possibly is the Antichrist.

There are many convoluted and strained interpretations in Wohlberg’s understanding of Scripture and it is a shame that they exist.  It is more of a shame that all the while he misinterprets this or that, he accuses the PreTrib Rapturist of being deceived and trying to fit their theology on top of Scripture, when it does not fit (according to him).  Wohlberg needs to back away from his Seventh-day Adventist leanings and simply study the Scriptures for what they say, not for how he can get everything to fit.  It becomes ridiculous, to the point that he believes the Mark of the Beast is none other than worshipping on Sunday, not the original Sabbath (Saturday).  How does he get here?  By trying to show that the Roman Empire gave birth to Roman Catholicism, which gave birth to the pope (the 11th horn, states Wohlberg).  This pope (beast), has the ability to change the times and seasons, and therefore since it was the Catholic church (Wohlberg says) that changed the original worship day from Saturday to Sunday, then voila! there you go, the pope is the beast and the mark of the beast is changing worship from Saturday to Sunday. Oy…

In coming days, I’ll write specifically about aspects of Wohlberg’s book, and some of the assumptions and – in my opinion – his error in interpreting Scripture.

 

 

 

 

1 – http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/10021/5201.html?1108090644

Entry filed under: Atheism and religion, dispensationalism, Life in America, Posttribulational Rapture, Pretribulational Rapture, Religious - Christian - End Times, Religious - Christian - Prophecy, Religious - Christian - Theology. Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , .

Steve Wohlberg’s “End Time Delusions” Obama Greater than Jesus?

21 Comments

  • 1. modres  |  February 8, 2010 at 5:45 PM

    Hi Jim,

    First up, you are welcome to comment, however it seems clear to me that you have made your point countless times. I am NOT attacking you, or anyone else in SDA. I do not attack Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses or other groups from which I disagree theologically.

    What I DO is rebut the theology of these groups. Since you happen to be a SDA, you see me as attacking you, which is incorrect.

    I’m sorry that you find my writings offensive and you have mentioned that before as well. I have tried to explain to you that my difficulty is with the Romanistic view in which SDA operates. While salvation is received THROUGH faith, it appears to me that within SDA, salvation is MAINTAINED through WORKS and this means that salvation can be LOST. I do not see this teaching in the Bible though.

    This is why I asked you what would happen if you neglected to observe the Sabbath, and a few other things. You gave no response.

    You are absolutely correct – an educational background does not grant license to spread untruths. But if you would take the time to prove to me that I am spreading untruths, then I could either correct myself, or correct your understanding of what I mean.

    Jim, once again, what I am concerned about is SALVATION. You seem not to be able to differentiate between Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, stating that while you don’t agree with everything they teach, they can be Christians (my paraphrase of your words). The crux of the problem lies in WHO they believe Jesus to BE. In each of these groups, He is not considered to be God, the Son. He is considered to be A god, but not THE God. If we are wrong about who Jesus is, it is IMPOSSIBLE to receive His salvation.

    I am CONCERNED about people who believe like I’ve outlined above, but you do not appear to be.

    I am concerned about people who believe that once they have RECEIVE salvation, they must WORK to maintain it.

    Everything I have studied about SDA tells me that the emphasis AFTER receiving salvation is on WORKS.

    Do I believe that Catholics cannot receive salvation? Of course I believe they can be saved. I also believe SDA members can be saved. My difficulty is with the theology they espouse. Would you like to share with me the official SDA position on Catholicism?

    Jim, you keep accusing me of misrepresenting your beliefs, and spreading falsehoods, yet you do not respond directly to my queries.

    1. Are you denying that to SDA, I am already on my way to hell because I do not keep the Sabbath?

    2. Are you denying that according to SDA, salvation is received through faith and no works are attached to it after that to MAINTAIN salvation?

    3. Are you saying that SDA has no problem with Roman Catholics and the official position of the SDA does not believe the Pope to be the “beast” or Antichrist?

    Everyone keeps talking about Jesus’ love as if that is the only dimension of His character and personality. Are you NOT aware that He spoke of HELL more than any other subject?

    When He turned over the money changers’ tables in the outer court, using a whip to drive His point home, was He loving people then?

    When He referred to the Pharisees as white-washed sepulchers, was He loving them then?

    When He referred to people as evil, adulterous, and as vipers, was He loving them then?

    This sentimentality that you and others profess does absolutely nothing except make you FEEL good. That is not what Christ is about. He did not die so we can FEEL good. He died so that we can have LIFE ETERNAL.

    Please take the time to respond directly to my queries, will you?

    If you do not, is there really any point to you returning when you essentially say the same thing with different words, each time?

    In His Service,
    Fred

  • 2. JimB  |  February 8, 2010 at 5:05 PM

    It seems to me that you have misconceptions about what the Seventh-Day Adventist Church teaches. If not, then it seems you have some sort of vendetta against Seventh-Day Adventists. In either case, I find your writings very offensive.
    You are also incorrect in your views of church doctrine.
    I have no desire to argue about this, as I merely wanted to point this out, yet I find that I am attacked and berated for my Christian beliefs, by one who professes to be a fellow Christian.
    I’m sure you have a great educational background in biblical Studies, this does not however give you license to spead untruths about any denomination.
    I sincerely hope that you do find the love of Jesus in your heart and carry on his message in a true Christian manner.
    May God Bless You!

  • 3. Teri Day  |  February 7, 2010 at 4:00 PM

    So sad, you boast of your knowlege and use it as a sword to cut your brother in christ. Jesus has people in ALL faiths. At HIS appointed time he will call them out. It is not up to YOU to make the decision who is saved, or not.

    May God Bless you.

    • 4. modres  |  February 7, 2010 at 5:46 PM

      Actually, what is sad is that you do not know the differences in theology enough to know that since so many faiths contradict Christianity, He could not possibly have people in all faiths. Too many faiths are mutually exclusive with Christianity. I could not disagree more strongly with you and it is a shame that you believe the error you believe. In fact, it is because of erroneous thinking like yours that people “of all faiths” die everyday without Jesus.

      I did not say it was up to me to make the decision about who IS or who is NOT saved. But tell me, why does Seventh-day Adventism teach that I am ALREADY going to hell because I have somehow taken the mark of the beast by not worshipping on Sunday? That is pretty harsh, isn’t it, yet this is part of SDA dogma. I don’t see you complaining to THEM about it though.

  • 5. modres  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM

    Look Jim, I have over 1,000 books in my library. I have a Bachelor’s degree in Bible and a Master’s in Biblical Studies. I am writing my 15th book, and I do not say what I say LIGHTLY. I am NOT bragging, but I tell you this so that you will know that I say what I say based on the research that I am continually involved in.

    SDA believes this: “Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment” This statement tells me that you can never be sure of your salvation if you are an Adventist. Would you disagree with that statement?

    Jim, do you believe that you have a GUARANTEE of eternal life NOW?

    You have taken umbrage at my words and frankly, I think you’re protesting too much. You’ve made your point, and I’ve made mine. I do not believe I have stated anything wrong at all, or separate from the facts. You believe differently, so we are on opposite sides of the fence.

    My ONLY concern Jim, is for YOUR salvation. That’s it. I’m not bashing SDA, no more than I am bashing Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses. You keep coming back to this discussion, but you provide me with NOTHING that convinces me you are in truth, saved.

    Here’s something you may or may not know. According to SDA beliefs, I am going to hell. The reason? Because according to SDA, I have already accepted the “mark of the beast.” What is the “mark of the beast”? According to SDA, it is worshipping on Sunday. Who is the beast? It is the pope who mandated Sunday worship, from Saturday.

    So, according to YOUR own church’s beliefs, I am going to hell. Now, who is judging WHO, Jim?

    The Investigative Judgment of SDA Theology states, “In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.”

    There is NOTHING in Scripture that supports this position that I could find at all. The only Bible references used by SDA are those that support the conclusion of His ministry as Priest, which are – in my view – STILL taken out of context.

    This particular sentence: “It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.” is really teaching that it is ONLY by following the commandements that we ABIDE in Christ, and only those who ABIDE in Christ are worthy to be translated to His Kingdom.

    If this is not clear enough, this sentence, “It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom” says it all.

    You say that you are human and you are always learning. That’s great. I’m in the same boat. But according to SDA teachings, if I am found to not have remained loyal, I will not receive God’s kingdom. This is not what I understand the Bible to be teaching, Jim.

    Tell me – do you CONSISTENTLY keep the Ten Commandments? Do you consistently keep the Sabbath? Don’t you know that Paul says if you place yourself under one part of the Law, that you are obligated to obey ALL of the Law? (cf. Galatians 5)

    Are you also aware that the Mosaic Law contained not just Ten Commandments, but a total of 613 Mitvot (Laws)? If you are BOUND by the having to keep the Sabbath, or wash another person’s feet EVERY time you have Communion, or something else, then you MUST keep ALL of the Law, ALL the time, without FAIL. Do you do that?

    Jim, I don’t mind discussing this with you at all, but I would like you to understand that you are not going to change my opinion of salvation, nor are you going to change my viewpoint of what SDA believes. In fact, without trying to offend you further, it appears that I know more about your church’s beliefs than you do.

    Resorting to playing the “I am human” card is not good enough, Jim. We’re ALL human but that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation as God has given it to us. Being imperfect has nothing to do with it either.

    If you could get passed the belief that I am ATTACKING you or your beliefs, we could probably have a decent conversation. As it is, you respond to try to correct what you believe are errors on my part.

    Everything you are saying about living a life of being Christian is EXTERNAL. You have not discussed meaningfully, the INTERNAL, which is where the rubber meets the road.

    People can try to live by rules and lots of people DO. It doesn’t make them a Christian. Only salvation makes a person a Christian.

    HOW do YOU believe you BECOME Christlike, Jim? Be as specific as possible and refer to Scripture as much as you can, all right?

    I am NOT your enemy – not even close. I am concerned about what the SDA teaches and the effect it has on its members. I am concerned about Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses for the same reason.

    When was the last time you shared your faith with anyone? When was the last you actually BELIEVED that your sins – past, present and future – have been forgiven?

    Share YOUR beliefs with me, Jim. I do not want to hear platitudes. I would like to know specifically what salvation is for YOU, as YOU understand it.

    You are the one who keeps coming back to this conversation, so give me some meat, will you; something I can sink my teeth into, all right? Otherwise, we are wasting our time.

    If you were going to try to explain YOUR salvation to a non-believer, exactly what would you say? THAT’s what I’m asking you. All you are doing is attempting to defend yourself, and I’m not interested because you do not have to defend yourself to me or anyone else, except Jesus Christ.

  • 6. JimB  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:26 AM

    I should add that I am pretty sure that you may have similar feelings towards my statements, and I acknowledge that I am FAR from perfect. I too am just a human being on his journey. I can only hope to gain knowledge along the way, and to honor my Lord and Savior.

    Again, May God Bless You.

  • 7. JimB  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:15 AM

    I would respectfully suggest that before you critique any theology, get the facts correct.
    I would recommend that you read the book
    “Seventh-Day Adventists Believe . . . ” before you put forth any inaccurate information regarding the church’s doctrine.

    Inaccurate information such as this statement you made earlier in this thread ” It’s just too bad that according to SDA beliefs, you are still attempting to earn your salvation, which is completely. You do this by attempting to keep the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath, and other ceremonial rules and the regulations”

    The Seventh-Day Adventist Church does not state that your standing before God depends on your deeds. In fact if you do take the time to read the book I suggested, please turn to the chapter on salvation.

    Personally I believe that a Christian should lead a life the brings them closer to Christ. I don’t believe you can do this by living a life where you do not try to keep the Commandments. We are human, we sometimes stumble. The fact that we are human means that we are not perfect. We can however strive to become Christlike. Yes, I do believe that we must accept Christ as our Savior to obtain salvation.

    Again, I do not wish to argue, nor do I mean to sound disrespectful, however I do believe you do not fully understand the doctrine of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and are being a bit condescending in the process. Which of course serves as an example that we are in fact human, and have not achieved Christ’s perfection.

  • 8. modres  |  February 2, 2010 at 11:37 PM

    Jim,

    I meant no offense. If you believe you’re saved, then it should not at all matter what I think. When I said to you, “I would like you to tell me what you believe salvation to be,” you did not respond to my query. All you said was that many paths lead to God, in spite of the fact that Christ says there is only one path.

    So please forgive me if I have misunderstood. Since you did not explain what your view of salvation is, then I assumed that you did not know, or your view of salvation is he official SDA view. If so, I disagree vehemently that what SDA espouses is biblical salvation.

    Far from “judging” you, I am critiquing SDA theology.

  • 9. JimB  |  February 2, 2010 at 5:41 PM

    “People like Jim”
    One again I must quote from Matthew Chapter 7: “Judge not, that you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” (Matthew 7 V 1-2 NKJV)

    I am a Christian, God Bless You.

  • 10. modres  |  February 2, 2010 at 4:47 PM

    Thanks for your comments, AMC. People like Jim probably find greater meaning in your words than in mine, since I never went the route and you did. Amen that you found the truth!

  • 11. amc  |  February 2, 2010 at 1:51 PM

    Middletown Bible church offers a great verse by verse study on Romans, which can be a difficult read without the benefit of good exposition.

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/romans/romans.htm

    I’m also ex RC, ex Herbert Armstrong’s WWCOG cult and ex New Ager. Not a great track record until God firmly put His hands on my shoulders and pointed me in the right direction. Understanding the relationship between faith and salvation versus earning one’s salvation through works was difficult for me to grasp at first. But one thing my track record has impressed upon me is that there is only ONE way to salvation. When different religions and beliefs contradict each other they cannot all be right.

    I love this video from John MacArthur:

    http://vodpod.com/watch/2045408-john-macarthur-the-narrow-gate

  • 12. modres  |  February 1, 2010 at 10:32 PM

    That’s fine then, Jim. It’s just too bad that according to SDA beliefs, you are still attempting to earn your salvation, which is completely. You do this by attempting to keep the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath, and other ceremonial rules and the regulations.

    That is NOT the salvation that Jesus offers. At any rate, thanks again for your comments. Just a suggestion, but you may wish to read the first 8 chapters of Romans. In it, Paul clearly defines the benefits of our free salvation.

  • 13. JimB  |  February 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM

    I’ve found my path to Jesus and simply because it may differ from yours, doesn’t make it the wrong path.

  • 14. modres  |  February 1, 2010 at 7:48 PM

    Jim,

    What you are espousing has nothing to do with Christianity at all and everything to do with the New Age movement. You said nothing about Jesus’ own claims to be the only path to God (John 14:6). You mentioned nothing about Jesus’ atonement.

    The reason you are unable to say that anyone could be wrong theological speaking is because you do not know enough about your own beliefs to know what you believe and whether or not it squares with the Bible.

    The Bible says one thing, or it says nothing. I am not at all being disrespectful when I point out what I consider to be the fallacies of other belief systems. You would likely say the same thing about Paul that you said of me, because of what he states in the book of Galatians.

    Jesus spoke about hell more than any other topic. Do you think it’s possible that He provided ONE sure way of avoiding it? I do. I hope you find it too, Jim.

    Thanks for your comments.

  • 15. JimB  |  February 1, 2010 at 5:07 PM

    “Jesus spoke of people who were hypocrites, who believed they were more spiritual than other individuals and never neglected the chance to lord it over them whenever they could.”

    I do not mean to be disrespectful, but this is JUST what I feel you are doing when you label other’s denominations as “cult-like”.

    I’ll tell you just what I believe – I believe that I do not have all of the answers. I believe that everyone has the right to worship God in the way that feels right to them as long as they are not harming or persecuting others. Most of all I believe that different denominations & different religions are different paths to the same destination. May God Bless You.

  • 16. JimB  |  February 1, 2010 at 3:24 PM

    I would like to respond to the following as well –
    “I say the same thing about Mormonism, and Jehovha’s Witnesses for the same reason.”

    Although I may not personally hold all of the same beliefs as the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, I believe that it is equally irresponsible and incorrect to label those denominations “cult-like” as well.

    • 17. modres  |  February 1, 2010 at 4:36 PM

      You are entitled to believe what you would like to believe. I think it is irresponsible to allow these folks to continue in their current belief system when in point of fact, it is because of that belief system that they may NOT have actual salvation, but only THINK they do.

      It is irresponsible to do nothing and allow them to leave this earth, and end up in a place of eternal torment because you “may not personally hold all of the same beliefs.”

      Who is right? Is there any way to know? Is God’s Word so convoluted that it is impossible to know whether:
      1) Jesus is GOD
      2) The Bible is inerrant
      3) Christ was born of a virgin
      4) God is three in one – the Trinity
      5) Jesus became fully human, while remaining fully God, lived a life of sinless perfection, was falsely accused, died on the cross, shedding His blood for you and me, died, rose on the third day and ascended into heaven

      Both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons CHANGE a number of those things and they are extremely important. Most importantly, they ADD to the mode of salvation. Either Jesus did it all, or He did nothing.

      If you are still trying to earn your salvation, then something is wrong. You obey the rules and regulations of the Mosaic Law because you are an Israelite? The only law Christians are ordained to obey is the law of love. This INCLUDES the moral code of the Ten Commandments. The ONLY commandment that Jesus rescinded during His ministry was the Sabbath. All other laws of the Ten Commandments were emphasized and held up by Him.

      Jim, I’m glad you found my page. People will never realize their need for salvation, until they realize they have a need to begin with. All people have that same need. As Paul says in the first part of Romans, the Law was given to point out our sin AND to point out the fact that we cannot keep it, no matter how hard we try. Yet, you are still trying.

      The Law ultimately points to Jesus Christ and His once-for-all atonement for our sin. Everything about the Law points to Jesus, whether it’s the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the sacrificial system itself or whatever. All of it points to Jesus and is fulfilled in Him.

      You cannot earn salvation. It is impossible. Frankly, I would like you to tell me what you believe salvation to be, if you are interested. How do you understand it?

  • 18. JimB  |  February 1, 2010 at 3:08 PM

    Please allow me to respond:
    1) “Your words to me are more of an attack than mine. You referred to me as “judgmental” even though you seem not to understand the difference between pointing out error and judging a person’s inner motives.”
    “The idea of being “non-judgmental” is not part of Jesus’ teachings.”

    I do not believe I attacked you at all, I simply asked – whatever happened to being nonjudgmental?

    2) “The idea of being “non-judgmental” is not part of Jesus’ teachings.”

    Is it not written:
    “Judge not, that you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” (Matthew 7 V 1-2 NKJV)

    I must state that in my opinion it is irresponsible and incorrect to label Seventh-day Adventism “cult-like”.
    I mean no disrespect, however I disagree with your point of view.

    • 19. modres  |  February 1, 2010 at 4:28 PM

      Actually, you stated, “I believe that it is very irresponsible and UNCHRISTIANLIKE” You chose to take my comments personally and invest them with something that is not there. This is exactly what some groups are doing today when anyone disagrees with them.

      For instance, I have made this statement in the past: Homosexuality is wrong. I was immediately pounced on as being judgmental and filled with hatred. Wrong on both counts. I made a statement that I believe is corroborated in God’s Word.

      Regarding your quote of Matthew 7 where Jesus tells us not to judge. Please note, he is NOT stating that we are not allowed to make judgments about things, or especially about theology. This often happens with people who take verses out of context. They come up with another meaning. Please go back and read the entire chapter of Matthew 6, then all the way through chapter 7.

      You should be able to note that Jesus is speaking of something completely different than what you are referring to here. Jesus spoke of people who were hypocrites, who believed they were more spiritual than other individuals and never neglected the chance to lord it over them whenever they could.

      The whole point of Jesus’ words there is to tell us that we cannot judge men’s MOTIVES because we can never see inside the person. This is completely different than studying Scripture to see what is and what is not theological error.

      Both Jesus and Paul (as well as most of the other writers of the New Testament) STRESSED the need to test the spirits. They stressed the fact that false prophets would come into the Church with destructive heresies that would endeavor to destroy it. These destructive heresies always involve salvation and once someone goes off the narrow path of salvation, they are ruined. SDA exemplifies this, in my opinion. I realize that not all people believe SDA to be cult-like, but my biggest problem with SDA is the emphasis on following the regulations, rules, ceremonies and laws of the nation of Israel in order to maintain salvation.

      Let me ask you…what happens to you if you fail to keep the Sabbath? What happens if you break the Ten Commandments. Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-28 that if a man looks upon a woman to lust for her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Have you ever done that? Have you done it recently? If so, you are an adulterer. How does the theology of SDA affect you?

      Paul tells me that I am declared righteous already because of my faith in Christ and His redemptive work (Romans 1-6). There is nothing I can do to remove my salvation, which is completely free gift of God. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing my salvation, and according to Ephesians 2, I am already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. BECAUSE I am saved, and BECAUSE I am loved and BECAUSE I am fully forgiven for all my sin – past, present and future – then I know that there is nothing that can separate me from His love. More importantly, BECAUSE I am all of these things, I WANT to serve Him the rest of my life. But what if I make a mistake and break a commandment? Do I lose my salvation? No, however, my fellowship with Him is broken until such a time as I confess my sin to Him.

      I’ll say it again, I did not judge Mr. Wohlberg. I judged his TEACHINGS, comparing them to Scripture and I found Wohlberg’s words wanting. I have done the same thing with the words and teachings of Ellen G. White and found her lacking as well.

      Any time a group of people build a new “denomination” which changes the mode of salvation, they become a cult, whether they like it or not.

  • 20. modres  |  February 1, 2010 at 1:23 PM

    Him JimB,

    I say the same thing about Mormonism, and Jehovha’s Witnesses for the same reason. The terrible truth of the matter is realized in the tenets and teachings of Seventh-day Adventism itself and Ellen G. White.

    I realize that people disagree about the status of SDA. But if you will consider the following:

    1. The entire SDA grew out of the Millerites and Miller’s incorrect prophecy regarding Christ’s physical return. In other words, SDA is built on a lie, even though people moved away from Miller and began to embrace White.

    2. SDA unfortunately ADDS to salvation by insisting that the Old Testament dietary regulations, ceremonial laws and specifically the Sabbath Day (Saturday) must be kept as well as all the Ten Commandments. Salvation is from grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone. He is Author and Perfector of my faith. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation, yet SDA seems to teach that certain things MUST be done in order to maintain salvation.

    3. The belief exists (from White herself) that Christ actually had a sin nature; “He took our nature and its deteriorating condition…”

    4. The Investigative Judgment is one, which contains numerous falsehoods, according to the Bible. This, along with the “Scapegoat” theory and completely unbiblical, in my view.

    5. Ellen G. White is viewed as a prophet and someone whose utterances and teachings are on par with the authority of the Bible.

    Now, based on this information, it is difficult for me to assess SDA as being anything other than a cult. Because SDA appears to ADD to salvation by faith alone, they are effectively preaching another gospel; another salvation.

    My words are NOT an attack on a person. My words are simply pointing out what I believe to be false teaching from an individual who is part of a false system. Your words to me are more of an attack than mine. You referred to me as “judgmental” even though you seem not to understand the difference between pointing out error and judging a person’s inner motives.

    The idea of being “non-judgmental” is not part of Jesus’ teachings. While we are NOT to judge the MOTIVES of people, we are absolutely, to JUDGE the THEOLOGY of people. Jesus warned as did Paul, Peter, and James, that many false prophets and teachers would enter in for the purpose of deceiving the flock.

    That deception they spoke of always involves salvation. From my own study over the years, it certainly appears as though SDA adds to salvation by insisting that many of the practices of the Old Testament be adhered to today.

    I apologize if my words offended you, but I feel no compunction to retract any of them.

  • 21. JimB  |  February 1, 2010 at 1:06 PM

    I believe that it is very irresponsible and UNCHRISTIANLIKE to suggest that Seventh-day Adventism is not so much denomination, but rather “cult-like”.
    Personally, I find your statement very offensive.
    What ever happened to being nonjudgmental?
    The next time you feel the need to attack a person, a denomination, a belief, or anything else,
    won’t you please first ask yourself “WHay would Jesus do?”.


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